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on that occasion on which such an interpretation could have been placed . Now , though I admit that the expressions are not so respectful as might be properly used towards the Sovereign of a foreign State , yet still the substance of the argument is such as he was perfectly justified in using ; and , naving expressed his regret that any such interpretation as has been should be placed upon expressions used inadvertently on such an occasion as that of addressing his constituents , I do think no further notice can be properly taken of the subject . But the important part of the noble marquis ' s speech was , that he seemed to think this matter threw some doubt on the continuance of those amicable relations which he wished to see maintained
between France and this country . I hope I have on that subject satisfied him completely . He may rest assured that nothing of the kind has taken place . The noble marquis has referred to me for the production of the correspondence that took place previously to the recognition of » the French Empire . I think that , though there might be a portion of that correspondence produced , yet it would be inconvenient to lay so mucAon the table as would lead to a correct understanding of the transaction , therefore I hope the noble marquis will not press for their production . " In this suggestion Lord C ^ aneicakde concurred , and the production of the correspondence was not pressed for .
The third proceeding had reference to the presumed naval preparations of France , and the interrogator was Mr . Cobden . He prefaced his question as follows : — " A recent , and the most pressing cause , for my putting a question to the noble lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs , is , that in fhe ~ Times newspaper of last Saturday a letter appeared in a very prominent position , signed by a peer of the realm , ancHtrhich contained , among other similar statements , the following : — ' Peculiar circumstances have enabled me to obtain information , which cannot be doubted , upon important points hearing upon these questions ; but , before referring to it , I would state that I have lived in France , have been on terms of intimacy with , many Frenchmen , and have lost no opportunity of making myself acquainted with the state of public feeling . ' Speaking of the navy : —
' I would defy even any Frenchman to assert that the force which they were known to possess last year was not amply sufficient for any purpose which France could require , excepting for that of an invasion of our possessions . * A little further on the noble lord says , ;—* I therefore contend that every additional ship to that great foree- ^ -they have now more sailors in their pay than we have , without onr vast colonial empire—is an additional proof that the y do contemplate a descent on our- shores . I have received positive information , which cannot be doubted , that they are now striving to the very utmost to increase their naval force in every manner , and that arrangements haw been officially decided upon to continueyear after year similar exertions . I cannot give my authorflsy , but trust that I shall be believed when I say that this information may be moat thoroughly relied upon . ' Again , towards the close of his letter , the noble lord says , —
' I repeat , that the information I have received of preparations which can only be made for aggression may be- relied on . ' It cannot be doubted that a statement of this sort—a statement of facts made from his own peculiar knowledge and peculiar means of information by the noble lord—must make a great impression on the country ; and the question I have to put , and of which I gave notice to the noble lord , is , whether the British Government has had any communication with the Government of France with respect to the increased naval preparations alleged to bo going on in that country ?"
Lord Johf RussEiiii was prompt in reply . " With respoct to the question with which my honourable friend has concluded , I have to state that , though it is true that the French Government have thought it right both to increase and fc / improve their naval means , yet that increase and that improvement is going on gradually , and is not at all such as , considering that Franco is a groat maritime country , would justify or roquiro that the Government of this country should raise any question to tho Government of Franco on tho subject . . The relations between the two countries are of the moat friendly nature ; and , with respect to European afl'airs , tho best understanding prevails between tho two Governments . With respect to the information in tho letter of tho noblo lord to which
my honourable friend haa alluded , I must cortainly profess ignorance . I believe this Government haa tolerably good information , and I may add that I believe there is no concealment on tho part of the Government of France with respect to the improvement and the increase they are making in their ships , but , with respect to information like that of tho noblo lord , I certainly have no such information whatsoever . All I know is , that in that letter tho noble lord haa mode some awkward mistakes , for ho upeakn of the withdrawal of an ambassador in consequence of tho i . ' ritchard dispute , on which occasion no ambassador was
withdrawn by this country ; and I should say , on tho evidence of that letter and of a former letter published in the Times , that whatever information tho noble lord may have received with respect to the ports of Franco , he i . s very ill informed at ) to what passes in my house , ( ' Hear , / mar , ' and a laugh . ) His Htatement with rospoe . t to what ' paused in a house in London , which happens to bo mine , is totally inaccurate . 1 don't attach so much importance an my honourable friend to tho ( statement of a peer of the realm because there are peers of tho realm wIhjho authority in by no muunu infallible . ( 'Hoar , hear , and a launh . )"
Ah tluiHO matters have some rofcrenco to national defenco , wo may not improperly hero append tho subject of a reply given to Mr . llindley , by Lord Patlmeuhton . " Persons who circulate placards with tho view of dcterring pursuits from entering the militia , uro interfering with her Majouty ' n service , and preventing the country from obtaining the means of defence which are neccs-Btiry . They commit gruvo oiiuncoB ( ' Hour , * from tho
Opposition ) , and merit , if they do not receive , the punishment which the law may award . "
THE CASE OF MADIAI . Mr . Kinnaied moved an address , praying her Majesty to take such steps as might be deemed most fitting , for bringing under the notice of the Grand Duke of Tuscany the feelings prevailing in this country in consequence of the persecutions ivow actively begun in Tuscany against those who profess the religion of her Majesty and of the majority of her subjects in this kingdom . He gave an account of the rise and
progress of recent religious persecutions in Tuscany , and especially adverted to the case of the Madiai , whose legal innocence he asserted , and whose private character he vindicated . Paying a tribute to the conduct of the United States , and of the King of Prussia , in reference to the subject , and showing from history that England had already interfered to save Protestants from Roman Catholic tyranny , he expressed his hope that the Government would not refuse assent to his motion .
Lord Dudley Stuart seconded the motion , and declared himself the enemy of persecution of all kinds . The Grand Duke , and even the Pope , were less to blame in regard to these cruelties than Austria , whose armies occupied the country , and whose rulers had been proverbial for their religious tyranny . If the Austrian troops were withdrawn , persecution would soon cease . He regretted that there existed Roman Catholics in this country who did not disapprove of the conduct of the Grand Duke , and he hoped to hear a different avov / al from Roman Catholic members of the House .
Mr . Lucas could not agree to the proposed resolution , because it was not in accordance with the facts of the case . It appeared from the papers before the House that the sentence on the Madiai was a punishment for the crime of proselytism , at the instigation of foreign emissaries , and with the aid of money supplied from this country . The House could not set itself up as a court of appeal against the finding of the Tuscan court , which must be presumed to be right on the . law and the facts of the case . He then demanded why the English Government had not remonstrated with the Czar when the Catholic nuns were massacred at Minsk ; and he remarked upon the limited philanthropy of
Protestantism , commenting upon Lord Palmerston ' s defence of the expulsion of the Jesuits from Switzerland , in 184 V , a case which , mutatis mutandis , he alleged to be that of the Madiai in Tuscany . He next found a parallel to the latter case in the conduct of Mr . Pritchard , in driving away the Catholic missionaries from Tahiti , also sanctioned by Lord Palmerston . Adverting to the case of Catholics in Sweden , he threatened , in order to test the sincerity of Government , to bring on a motion similar to the present , in regard to the conduct of all the Protestant Cabinets in Europe towards Catholics . When we had taught these toleration , it would be time to begin with the Catholic States .
Lord John Rusbeix delivered a very spirited speech , putting the pith of it into his opening sentences . "In following the ablo speech of tho honourable gentleman , I own I should have been better pleased with that speech if that honourable ) gentleman had indicated somewhat more decidedly than he has done whether or not ho approves of punishment and persecution for the sake of religious conversion —( loud cheers)—or for endeavouring , by peaceable means , to convert others to their religion . ( Cheora . ) In following that speech , in listening to all the statements of tho honourable gentleman , I own I am totally at a loss to know whether ho approves or not of religious persecution . 4 ( Renowed cheers . ) 1 wish to refer as little as possible—though one cannot altogether avoid—¦
reference to the questions between Protestants and Itoman Catholics ; and I Hhn . ll state at onco that , my conviction ia , that if Protestant states , . Protestant lawn , or . 1 ' rotestant judges condemn persons because they have become Roman Catholics , or because they teach others to become lioman Catholics , they do that which I consider to be morally wrong . ( Loud cheorH . ) I care little what particular profession of faith they hold . It may bo that they hold exactly the doctrines and articles of tho Church of Knglund ; but if they , professing tlio . se doctrines , endeavour to inculcate them by penal means , by imprisonment and punishment—I say that with mich persons I have no sympathy , and I would denounce thorn as readily us 1 . would a Roman Catholic Sovereign . ( Cheers . )"
He denied that it wiw substantially charged that tho Madiaei acted under foreign agency ; hut bo that as it might , and . suppose the whole case made out , and their oflence put at tho utmost , their punishment wns a moral crime , against which British Administrations had instructed their agents to protest , and had been perfectly justified in so doing . Ho should , however , ask Mr . Kinimird not to preflH this motion on the House , hut to leave the matter to the Government . In answer
to Mr . Lucas , his lordship observed , that in no part of her M « joHty ' n dominion *) wan there any punishment for proselytimn , and therefore we came to the Slate of TuKcany with perfectly clean hands . Lord Palmovston had ever whown himself one of the most energetic ; ( ViundH of religious liberty . If Lord l'lilmortiton had Iwcn
mis ] pd as to the character of the Jesuits , he had been misled by Catholic authority , the King of Spain and tho Pope having expelled them , as mischievous . Defending the course we had taken in Tahiti , he glanced at his own conduct on the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill , incidentally mentioned by Mr . Lucas , and remarked that , he had considered that a question of temporal power which others- had regarded as one of spiritual power . This country , he continued , had a Protestant character , inherited for many a year , and it was natural that it should interfere on behalf of those of kindred
faith with itself , though Government would be ready to use its friendly offices where Catholics were persecuted by Protestants . But the principle was one , namely , that persecution for religion was odious and detestable , and the Government of this country should always raise its voice against it . He believed that the Catholics in general disapproved of such persecution . He concluded by observing that the matter might advantageously be left in the hands of Government ; that the opinion of England had been known and her voice heard ; and that , though the Madiai and others might suffer , the principles of liberty would ultimately triumph .
Mr . Bowyer , while entirely disapproving of persecution , considered the sentence upon " these persons " not an ecclesiastical , but a civil proceeding . Mr . Henry Dbummoud replied that all persecutions were excused on that ground . But in the course of a rather obscure speech , he seemed to favour the persecution of Catholics . Mr . J . D . Fitzgerald , as a Roman Catholic , here interposed his opinion that the sentence on the Madiai was " cruel . " He would always use his
voice , and if needs were , his arm , against persecution of all kinds . Lord Stanley then explained the course of the late Government . Fearful of perilling the peace of Europe by getting into collision with Tuscany , they had decided that the remonstrance should he nonofficial . Sir Robert Inglis protested against the doctrine that we are bound to protect the professors of all religions in every part of the world . Mr . Kennedy opposed the motion .
Lord Paxmeestok made the speech of the evening . He spoke as follows : — " I had no intention to take any part in this discussion , but I am anxious to make one or two observations in reply to the pointed allusion which the hon . member for Meath ( Mr . Lucas ) has made to me in the course of his speech . He is desirous that I should stand forth as the defender of the Grand Duke of Tuscany—a wish not unnaturally expressed by him , for I must own that if tlio hon . member was the only defender the Grand Duke could boast of , then indeed would the Grand Duke of Tuscany stand much in need of a defender . ( Cheers and laughter . ) I decline , however , the task tho hon . member would assign
to me . I defend myself , not the Grand Duke . ( Cheers . ) The lion , member , being unable to say ono single word in defence of tho conduct of the Grand Duke , proceeded to hnputo to me conduct similar in principle to that which my hon / friend ( Mr . Kinnaird ) and the J Louse have so justly condemned ; and ' the hon . member proceeded to allude to some transaction with regard to Switzerland , and to events that passed in tho island of Tahiti . JVovv , with regard to tho Switzerland question , the hon . member has read such parts of tho papers as suited his purpose , but I think ho could not have read enough to afford him a knowledge of tho nature of the transaction , or if he hos then lie ban suppressed that which was most unfavourable to lu ' s
object . ( Cheers . ) What was that transaction ? The hon . member appeared to represent that J . stood forward to persecute the Jesuits—that , I urged the Swiss Government to persecute the Catholics , or , an ho called it , ( o exterminate the Jesuits . What he meant by extermination it is left for him to explain ; I suppose ho meant lo expel them . Hut that was not a true representation of what took place . ( Cheers . ) The facts of the ease were these ! : A civil war had broken out in Switzerland . Cantons were armed against cantons—Protestants against Catholics a majority against a minority . We were invited by tho Froncli Government to mediate between the contending parties ; and we were engaged in endeavouring with the
French Government to settle " upon such terms as might afford n chance of putting an end to that disgraceful conflict . ( Hear , hear . ) The cause—tho original cause of the conflict were the . Jesuits —( loud cheers)—it was their pre-Henco in Switzerland — - ( renewed cheers ) — it was their aggroHsive proceedings in tho Protestant cantons , which produced that war , with regard lo which our mediation was naked fur . And that which struck me , was , that tho only natural mode of putting an end to that contest was to remove- the object and the cause of if . ( Cheers . ) 11 was iit that npirit that we proposed that the Jesuits should ho withdrawn . That t did , when making that proposal , state it is undoubtedl
the reasons which induced me to make y true . ( Cheers . ) I stated that it was my belief that the presence ) of tho Jesuits in any country , Catholic or Protostimt , was likely to disturb tho political and social peace of that country . ( Cheers . ) I . maintain that opinion utill , and I don't shrink from its avowal . ( Great cheering . ) I | , was not true , therefore , that we interfered voluntarily to recommond the expulsion of the Jesuits ; but , being culled upon to mediate for tho purpose of putting an end to the civil war in Switzerland , it appeared to mo that tho retirement of the Jesuits , which wo wished to bo elVeeted by tho intervention of the Pope himself , would , by removing the ouuso , iiIho make the effect cease . ( Cheera . ) Now , ' with regard to Tahiti—that remote island to which tho hon
Untitled Article
r February 19 , 1853 . ] THE LEADER . 171
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Citation
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Leader (1850-1860), Feb. 19, 1853, page 171, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse2.kdl.kcl.ac.uk/periodicals/l/issues/vm2-ncseproduct1974/page/3/
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