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life , would have become peers ; while the conflict of opinions havingbeen transferred from the House of Commons to the House of Lords , it would be utterly impossible for the House of Commons , left without a single statesman conversant with hi g h and grave questions , of alliances , of peace , of war , to give as this House has given , and as I hope it always will give , a general direction to - the whole external and internal polity of the realm . ( Cheers . ) Then all Europe would be looking to the great conflicts of Pitt and Fox in the House of Lords , and the House of Commons would be left to look after turnpike roads and canals .
Party wrangling , no douht , always would be ; but there was an abundant and extensiveljrovince of parliamentary business that lay quite remote from the contentions of parties , and in which a great jurist would render immeasurable and inestimable service , and obtain for himself an imperishable name . ( Cheers . ) "And if ever there was a time when such a jurist was needed here , and was likely to be justly appreciated , it is the present time ; for no observant man can fail to perceive that there is in the public mind a generally growing and earnest , and at the same time , I must say , reasonable and sober desire for extensive law reform . " Mr . Macaulay then argued against the tendency of this bill , and of former bills like it , to make the House of Commons less efficient ; and then replied to the argument for the bill , derived from the " division
of labour "" The principle of the division of labour is one of great value and importance , but one that may be most easily abused . You can carry it out in matters that are purely mechanical , but you may easily carry it too far when you come to higher operations . I will refer to a high authority on the question—that of Adam Smith ; and though I may admit that one man is to do nothing but throw up the hay while another man is to sharpen the point of the stack , I do not believe that Michael Angelo would have been a greater painter if he had not been a sculptor ; or that Sir Isaac Newton would have been a greater philosopher if he had not been a mathematician . ( Cheers . ) I do not believe
that a man would be a greater law-giver because he was not a great judge ; on the contrary , I think that between the duties of a legislator and those of a j udge there is as close a connexion as between anatomy and surgery . ( Cheers . ) It is as-absurd to exclude a judge from acting as a legislator as to say that the person wh * applies himself to the practice of surgery is not to be deemed competent to direct the study of anatomy . ( Hear , hear . ) I will refer to an authority that the ' honourable member for Montrose probably rates more highly than I do—Mr . Bentham . Of Mr . Bentham as a moralist or a metaphysician alone
I have no very high opinion ; but I look upon him as one of the greatest writers on the jucTima . 1 organization that ever lived . ( Cheers . ) I find in his celebrated work on judicial organization an article in which he dwells on the exceeding evil of plurality in office ; he strongly objects to suffering a judge to be anything but a judge , with one single exception : ' a judge , ' he saya , ' ought to be permitted to sit in the representative assembly that legislates for the commonwealth ; for , ' says ho , the very best school for a great legislator is the judicial bench ; and when legislative abilities are so difficult to bo found it would bo madness to throw them out when they arc in . ' "
Referring to the objection , that there was " something coarse , " in the way of getting into the House , Mr . Macaulay went to the root of the matter : —¦ " Are we prepared to say , that no person can como into the House of Commons except by means that are inconsistent with the gravity and dignity of the judicial bench ? If bo , it well becomes us to set our Ilouso in ordor . How can any country long prosper , if that assembly on which all its dearest interests depend—which by a single vote can chango its Government , and give a new direction to its whole policy , domestic , commercial , colonial , financial—can only 1 ; entered by means which mimf . lnwnr its character ? But it in not so . In what
measure did Sir William Scott lower his character by coining into this Houso ? In what way did Sir John Copley lower his character by coming into this Ilouso an motnber for the University of Cambridge ? But it is not necesHary to speak of universities ; it would be most unjust and unfuir not to say that delicacy and liberality of hoiitiinont that would do honour to any university may bo found amongst the- 10 / . householders of a great city ( Cheors . ) JJut need wo go further than to look at your chairP ( Cheers . ) It was , nil-, of as much . importance that you , at tho last general election , should maintain tho dignity , gravity , and impartiality of your exalted character as that tho Master of the Rolls should do ho . It
would bo impossiblo for you , sir , to commit tho smallest indecorum without grievous injury to your public utility . Did tho great county which has done Itsolf tho honour to return you require any conduct on your part upon which tho Speaker of this itouso must look back with nhumo ; niul what reason have wo to douht that a constituent body would not he as just to njudgoHS loyouP Thoro is no rouaon , I think , to doubt but Unit a judgo might tako his Boat in this Ilouso without luting required to < lo anything inconsistent with tho strict punctilio belonging to his
ntftlKoh . It may bo said tho law is inconsistent , and I admit it is -but my advice is , wo aro now entering upon a lM * L * AaU » , ami let lis stop in it . Tho tiino is not , far distant , when wo must como to reconsider tho constitution of this IIouko- ( On that occasion it . will bo tho duty of tho ( JovWrmuvnt most carefully to recommend tho rules according J , 6 ' w 4 iMH ' if shall bo determined who shall bo excluded . ' ¦ 'dl ^ vfaA WMrtivo in t , ho House Mivisral public functionn ** iH ' n () w tWWi Wc ( l--th (» third Secretary of State , tho I % Wffl& « W * WA « A-Hl , the Master of tho Kolls , the Judge of fcl » tilA < Wfl » Mty , tho Lords Justices , aud tho Vico--l : j ! u
Chancellors—leaving out the fifteen judges , as they have seats in the House of Lords : " I am perfectly certain , that in that way we should add to the credit of this great representative assemblywith the credit of which the credit of representative Governments all over the world is intimately bound up—and render our own body far more efficient for the discharge of our duties . ( Cheers . ) But whether those more extensive changes which I recommend shall or shall not be adopted , I see no reason for entertaining the bill of the noble lord . I will ask tho Conservatives of this House , will they agree to make changes in the state of a law which has lasted for twenty generations , and from which they do not themselves pretend that the smallest inconvenience has flowed P ( Cheers . ) I address myself to the Liberal members of this House , and I ask them whether it appears to them to be right to lower the character and diminish the efficiency of that branch of the Legislature which has sprung from the people . ( Cheers . ) As one uniting in myself the character of Liberal and Conservative , I shall divide most cordially for my hon . friend ' s amendment . " ( Cheers ) Lord Hotham replied , and the House divided . For the third reading , 123 ; Against it , 224 ; Majority , 101 . THE ESTABLISHED CHTJBCH IN IEELAND . A long debate on this old subject occupied the Commons on Tuesday . The formal matter before the House was a motion by Mr . G . H . Moore ( the member for Mayo ) , for a select committee to inquire into the ecclesiastical revenues of Ireland , and how far they are made applicable to the benefit of the Irish people . Mr . Moove stated a variety of arguments against the Establishment . It made the Irish people disloyal : " If an English ship and an American ship were fighting off any part of the coast of Ireland , the people would unquestionably wish the American to win . " For the religious opinions , feelings , and sympathies of the Irish people were studiously disregarded . This was not the error of the heated brain of Irishmen . Lord John Russell had called the Church Establishment " a great wrong ; " Mr . Disraeli had insisted on " ecclesiastical equality ; " Lord Campbell had called it " a mischievous institution ; " Lord Broug ham had denounced it as " the greatest of abuses ; " and Mr . Macaulay considered it " absurd and indefensible . " What were the circumstances of the case ? T he Irish church revenue was a fund set apart for the religious instruction of all the people , but it is no longer applied to that purpose . It bad been said that the Irish Protestants had increased , but he believed the Roman Catholics were still as five to one in Ireland . The funds of the Irish Chuvch now amounted to 800 , 000 ? . a-year ; and that revenue was retained for purposes of sloth and idleness to a small corporation of younger brothers . To prove this Mr . Moore stated that in eight parishes , for which he paid tithes , there was never performed a single Protestant service . Mr . Gladstone had said that the State was bound to support the church of the majority , and the majority of the United Kingdom being Protestant , the Protestant church ought to be supported in Ireland which was part of the United Kingdom . But then it should bo supported out of the Imperial treasury . In Scotland the church agreeable to the majority of tho people wns established ; and in Uelginin a Catholic Church lived on fair terms under n Protestant king . " Mr . Nowdegato said tho Irish people become Protestaints as soon us they go to Amorim . lhafc i . s to say , they becomo Protestants ' as soon us they get out of sight of tho established church . 1 will not now discuss whether that statement is correct , but T would give Protestantism fair play . ( Jive it a fair Hold , lot it breatho a pure air , remove tho golden collar from its nook , tho spoliation from Irish plunder , and let it stand forward in its true proportions to moot its grout adversary , and may tlod defend tho right . " ( Cheers . ) The ensuing debate lms little novelty . The lirst Government speaker wok Sir John Young , who warned the committee that Mr . Moore ' s motion was one to abolish the Irish Church . That , church was but a small portion of t , he evils of Ireland ; the income of the roctors averaged but UK )/ , a year ; and , at , the present moment ' , when then ! was no agitation , there was no call for such a change . The Irish Church , besides , was guar . mteed by tho Union , and against attack by tho pledges of Roman Catholics , at , tho l . imo of eniano . ipanution . It had also been greatly reformed , and of its revenues , of i )() 0 , 0 ()()/ ., 700 , 000 / . mine from Protestant sources . Mr . Muititouoii and Mr . l ' ouAUD Urqiiii a in , ( Irish members , ) and Mr . K . ( Jaudnkk condemned Mio Irish Church , as an " injustice , " using tho accustomed arguments . Sir It . Inuws warmly defended it ,, as guaranteed by tho Union , an " the last ; hope of Ireland , " and poinLed to the Noeiul bonei ' its its ministers hud conferred , at the time of the famine . Mr . NkwdkuatI' ! made a noisy attack on Konmnisin , in all countries , and imputed to Mr . Mooro an obedieneo to Legato Cullon : which Mr . Moouu emphatically denied . Mr . Mauuthio was statistical in showing that tho Roimin Catholics wore the majority in Ireland . Mr . J . U . PiUJbUMOKJi ! ropliod to Mr . Nuwdoguto with hoimo
effect . He regretted that history was ransacked to furnish envenomed weapons of party warfare . He could refer to as great instances of persecution by Protestants as by Catholics . Within the last eight years they had seen thousands of Roman Catholics flying before the dogmatic decrees of the King of Prussia . Arguments of this kind were worse than useless ; they excited feelings of hostility . The question for them-was , did the Irish Church fulfil its high and honourable purpose , and was it a benefit and blessing to the community ? No doubt it had produced many able and pious men ; but was there any church which had pursued a career marked with more disgusting indifference to the object it was designed to gain ? Mr . H . Dkttmmond also condemned the Irish Church
for its disgusting instances of nepotism , and its unpopularity with the majority of the people . We should not practice one thing , with regard to Scotland , and another with regard to Ireland . Mr . Whitestde made a general defence of the establishment , as well manag-ed , and useful in ameliorating the condition of the people . Mr . Lucas impatiently met the question in a direct way . The Roman Catholics were treated with injustice , and looked upon as inferiors : this was the sole cause of their present action . They talked about a constitution . His notion of the constitution of England was , that by mean 3 of representation the deep-rooted convictions of the people eventually were triumphant through public discussion , despite some anomalies that existed in England , but it did not exist in Ireland .
Sir John Young had given them " a lesson in agitation , " by practically saying that crime , outrage , and agitation would induce a redress of this grievance . On the present occasion , the opponents of the motion might have a majority : but the debate was only the commencement of a long , arduous , and , he was sure , successful campaign against the Irish Protestant Church . If there was one thing which sweetened in his mind the fiscal injustice which was about to be perpetrated in Ireland , it was that by making it clear to the eyes of all men that Ireland was taxed as England was taxed , by not
leaving even an apparent difference between the two countries , Parliament put it in their power to come with a loftier determination to that House , and ^ ay that if it made tho taxes equal , it should make the institutions equal . Tho Income-tax had been described by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as a colossal engine of finance . It was something more . It was an engine which would not only strike tho pockets of the people of Ireland , but would strike down , by repeated blows , if necessary , every social and political injustice by which that country was injured and oppressed . ( Cheers . )
This last speech called up Lord John Russell , who confessedly combated the frank opinions of Mr . Lucas , rather than the terms of Mr . Moore ' s motion . Lord John ' s statement touched on several points of the debate . With few exceptions , every political honour is open to the Roman Catholic as to the Protestant . Formerly , Roman Catholics showed their attachment to this country , by grateful words and gallant deeds : now the concessions made to them have been met by revilings . Neither the oath taken by Roman Catholic
members , nor any consideration of the Act of Union , should prevent a free discussion of this question , nor is any previous inquiry into the relations of Roman-Catholic prelates with tho Pope , noeossjiry ; but , the difficulty is that , while there is an unquestionable ecclesiastical inequality , in making the majority . support tho church of the minority , there can bo no compromise ; for one party resist all alteration , and the other party seek abolition . " The latter course 1 a-m not prepared to take . It would strike a ( , the root of all ecclesiastical
endowments , and violate tho great principle on which all these endowments are founded . ( ' Hear , hear / from Mr . Bright . ) The principle of ecclesiastical endowments may be wrong , but it is one which 1 am in favour of . " " Well then , sir , let us consider whether wo can make a new distribution of the revenues at present given to tho KsfabliuluMl Church , and whether , dividing solely according to numbers , we can give by far the greater part of tho . so revenues to tho Roman Catholic Church . Now , sir , if tho . Roman Catholic Church resembled tho Presbyterian Church of Scotland , although it might not bo just that tho Roman Catholics should have , what tho Presbyterians havo in Scotland , a national church entirely devoted to them , yet 1 can well imagine that a largo endowment should ho givon to ( lio Roman Catholic Church . Hut , unfortunately ,
ecclesiastical equality would not ho tlierehy secured . It has boon too evident , of lato yearn that tho Roman Catholic Church— -looking nfc its proceedings in foreign countrieslooking at its proceedings in this country , looking at th&b church , acting under tho direction of its head , hiumolf a foreign sovereign -it has boon too evident , 1 say , that it lias aimed at political power ( Opposition cheers ) political power which appears to mo to bo at variance with a duo uttaohinont to tho crown of this country— ( cheers ) — with a duo attachment to tho general cauHO of liberty , nnd with ft duo attachment to tho duties that a flubject of tho state should perform towards it . ( C'hoors . ) Now lot mo not bo misunderstood as saying that this character belongs generally to tho lay members of tho Roman Catholic Church . ( Cries of ' Oh ! ' ) I . am far from ho saying . I inn fur from denying that tho -mombors of thin House tjonorully , and that tho meinbora of tho Roman Catholic
Untitled Article
June 4 , 1853 . ] THE LEAD ER . 533
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Leader (1850-1860), June 4, 1853, page 533, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse2.kdl.kcl.ac.uk/periodicals/l/issues/vm2-ncseproduct1989/page/5/
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