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T$0. 4<2' d, MiYij 130».j _ x . Ji J2i S...
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Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software. The text has not been manually corrected and should not be relied on to be an accurate representation of the item.
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Imperial ¦ Parliament. ¦ Monday, Jj>Ril ...
eighty , all of whom -would occupy the highest posLt ion \ vith respect to their competency . He might be told that his proposition involved the representation of class interest ; but he would ask tlLe House if tlie legislation there was not founded entirely upon clans representation . 'ihe premises upon which the objections ¦ were founded were false . Viewed fairly , the Government measure would secure for the council that most desirable constitution which -would combine local experience and knowledge ¦ with English opinion . If they had a merely English , element , they might perkaps be endangering reckless and speculative legislation . " Unless an efficient council were -appointed , equal in knowledge and experience to the present Court of Directors , it would be better not to renounce the existing machinery ; for ,, if the suggestions of . tlie " simplicity school" were . adopted , the fate of our Indian empire would be sealed , aad deservedly bo .
Lord Palmjjiiston observed that any one > vho entered the House during Mr . J ) israeliV speech without being aware of the question before it , would have concluded that he was moving the second reading of the Indian Bill No . 2 . " That measure , upon which he had pronounced so unbounded a funeral panegyric , had been murdered by himself . If lie thought so well of tin : merits of the hill , why did he kill it ? " His Lordship then threw the House inXo roars of laughter by comparing the speech of Mr . Disraeli to an Irish " wake , " and by other personal observations on the right lion , gentleman . " He-had asked 'What could be so absurd ' —and he spoke from experience—' what could be so absurd tlie constitution of the Uritisli Cabinet ?
as { Hear , hear , and loud luur // tter . ~ ) What could be so absurd as putting a man into ths Cabinet because he was acquainted with , commerce ? or what could be so absurd as putting a man in the Cabinet because he could uxalce a good speech ? " ( Tlie noble Lord here pointed towards the Chancellor of the Exchequer , and the action was received with loud and continued laughter . ) " I 5 ut , if tlie right hon . gentleman were not trammelled by office —if Ills mouth were unclosed , and he were 011 the other side of the House—then he could tell them how absurdit was . " When two men met each other in the street , ¦ one would say to the other , " What arc you laughing at ? " and the other would sar , " Whv , what are you laughing at ? " and
both / would then exclaim , " Why , at the India Bill , to be sure . " Mr . Disraeli had said that both the bills had . the defect of simplicity , which he considered a political sin . His argument in favour of the elective principle was founded . ' upon a'fallacious analogy . " It is a fundamental principle of the English Constitution , that no part of the Executive shall hold its appointment from any other right than tiie Crown . Then they should not let the council be composed of any elective bodies , to oppose and thwart the Minister who was to be held responsible by that House . If the councillors were better -when elected than when nominated by the Crown , why 3 iot elect them all ? The rit ; Iit lion , gentleman would give the election of one of the council to the freemen < _ » t
Liverpool ; and lie said . ' Did they not elect Mr . Canning , and was he not made President of the Board of Control ? ' IMr . Canning was elected by the Crown , not because he was elected by the freemen of Liverpool , nor because he was a great orator , but because he was a great statesman , and was fitted for that most important position . He might say the same of Mr . lluskissou . Mr . Huskisson was a great man , audit was because of his great knowledge of matters of trade , that he was elevated to tlie high position he afterwards held . 1 le (" Lord PalmersUm ) did not profess to have complete
knowledge of Indian biisuness . lie must have some assistance , ' mid , if the Council all took part in it , it would be a case of * too many cooks . ' It seemed to him that eighteen were too many ; and though , . generally , 'in the multitude of councillors there is wisdom , ' there ¦ was , in this ease , groat danger in it . " The council ought to be convinced that they should be a council of advisers , and not a council of rulers—that they . were not to consider themselves a board of control appointed to overrule the Secretary of ( State . In that case , the responsibility of the Executive ' would cease , and there would 1 ) 0 , in fact , a double Government .
Mr . ( iiAnsroNK disagreed with the-proposed discussion of the question by resolutions , and . protested against the House alUrming the present motion . Mr . Disraeli had certainly not removed tlie scruples he had felt against tlie Government measure . Indeed , lie could not see any dements of a good scheme . There would always be grout difliculty in one people attempting to govern another people separated , not only by distance , but by blood and Ity institutions . " The question , " sniil Mr . Gladstone , " which we are bound to ; i . sk ourselves before all others ¦ with all others , and above nil others , is—what pro-, tcetion can wo provide by law not , only for the-
niuinteuaucc ) of those interests , but likewise for respect , caiv , and tolonilion towards the feelings of ( ho people : of ln < liu V 1 will say Uiis of the Courtof Directors , ( hat . it has practically been a body protective , of the people of India . { Hear . ) I am not . friendly to its nmintenanee , far less am 1 frii'iully to that , . state of severance which exists at present between the Executive and the , independent clement of the Indian Government ; hut this 1 do say , that . wo ought not to assent to any plan which inakeM less efiicwiiit provision for t . lio protection of Indian inUTosls and Indian feelings . An < l I look in vain to the plan of her Mujortty'tf Government , and still more in vuin , I thiuk , to the plun of the noble- Viscount , the member for
Tiverton , for any protective power that can be compared in point of efficacy to the Court of Directors , ( i / ear . ) I 5 ut there is another topic altogether new , so far as tliis discussion is concerned , which nevertheless weighs upon my mind almost oppressively ' with regard to legislating on this question . The first great point to which we have to look is to provide protection for the people of India , against the ignorance , indiscretion , and errors either of the Executive , or of Parliament , or of the Government of this country . But , besides that , there is a second question which 1 am afraid has hardly been named since those debates began . I know not what the ieeling of others may be in regard to ir , but I myself eutertain so strong an opinion upon it that 1 am bound to notice it . It appears to me that there has grown up
—partly from circumstances beyond our control , and partly by our own legislation—a system fraught with danger , not only to India , but also to the privileges of Parliament , and even to liberty as well as the public interest at home , by the undue , and , had not the Chancellor . of the Exchequer frightened me , I would have said the unconstitutional , exercise of power by the Executive Government through the means of the Indian army and treasury , (// car , hear . ') I cannot look back upon the history of wars , more than one , which have been waged in India during the last twenty years without snying that the power lodged in the hands of the Queen ' s advisers , as it has been , exercised in these instances , has been wholly at variance -with the interests
of the country and with the rights ami privileges ot the House of Commons . " { Hear , hear . ) Mr . Gladstone instanced tlie Persian war in support of this opinion , and addedthat what he wanted was to have a limitation of power placed on the Queen ' s advisers . He wanted a limitation in the Crown with respect to the use of tlie Indian treasure and the Indian army . He found no such principle , in the Chancellor of the Exchequer ' s bill ; and lie concluded by quoting the opinion of the right hou . gentlemen , who had said that , since he had been in power , every day ' s experience convinced him that there do not exist in this country men of that maturity of knowledge which is requisite-to deal-with difficulties of such a magnitude .
Colonel Sykes agreed with the observations of Mr . Gladstone , and affirmed that the East India Company had not broken down .- —Sir Hahry Vekxey also defended the Company . —Mr . Guegory considered that the House had not sufficient information to legislate upon the subject , and moved , as an amendment , a resolution , " That at this moment it was not expedient to pass any resolutions for the future government of India . " —This amendment was seconded by Mr . " William Ewabt . —Lord Joiln Russell thought that notice ought to have been given of the amendment , since its object was to reverse a previous , decision of the House , lie should be sorry if the House did reverse its deeision , and , iu his opinion , the best mode of constituting a
council -would be to make the Crown—with certain , restrictions and qualifications—responsible for the nomination of the members . —Mr . Ross Donnelly Mangles said he felt it to be his duty to oppose any measure whicli would do away with the iuliucnce of the East India House . Still , lie preferred tlie council proposed by Mr . Disraeli to that proposed by Lord Pahncrston . In tlie name of common sense , if they had a council at all , let it be a reality , and not a sham . Let it not be dictated to by a Secretary of State , but let it have a power of appeal to that House . —Mr . Bail . uk concurred in the desire of the Tlou . se . to proceed by resolution rather than by bill . — Sir ( Jeokge Gkev said that in the present position of the question , the Government bill being withdrawn , he must vote for the motion , although he differed from the scheme proposed in the resolutions . The amendment
appeared to negative any legislation upon the subject at all this session . —Mr . Gkegoiit admitted that this was ( he object of his amendment . —Mr . Wai / polk said he had supported the amendment moved by Mr . I luring when Lord P . dmerston obtained leave to introduce his bill ; but the House having thereby aflirnied by a largo majority that it wan expedient to legislate for the government of Iudin , it . would , by adopting " Mr . Gregory's motion , affirm a resolution in April diametrically opposed to one in February . This should not be done Avithout due notice . — Sir Kiiancik iJAitiNf ; likewise thought it advisable that thero should be some notice . —Lord Go-DKUicii spoke in opposition to the , amendment . —Mr . HoiiSHAN thought , that the House ought not to legislate on tlie subject of Indian government without previous inquiry ; and that might be the result of the ensuing Friday ' s discussion .
Mr . Ykunon Smith did not believe that the opinions of the Liberal party or of the country had altered with regard to the ni'ivusity of legislation ; but , <> . \ en if so , the proposal of Mr . llorsnutn would be the mont inconvenient lor that ; House to adopt , since , after atliriiiing the expediency of transferring the government of India to tlie Crown , the House would then stop short , and nothing would ivsiHy lie done for tlio present . Ho did not lii'lievc tho people of India euro anything about tlie Company , and tlu- whole evil of the . form of government now is Unit it is carried on in the name of tho Court of Diri'ctor . s and tlie Hoard of Control . With regard Jo tho constitution of the council , he . admitted that , the elective prineiple is a very proper one , if prni-tieable j but he had considered the subject while in ofliw , and had
found it impracticable . The only fair principle of representation would be the representation of tbe natives ; but such , a representation that House dared not venture on . Therefore the only principle left to be adopted was the principle of domination ; and that had been properly introduced into the bill of the late Government . That bill was also superior to its successor in doing away with the Secret Committee . He was opposed to the tendency of the resolutions ; hat would support them rather than an amendment whicli would postpone all legislation on the subject for the session .
Mr . Peter . O'Brien strenuously protested against the assertion of Mr . Horsm an , that the Liberal party generally had changed their opinion witli regard to the necessity of immediate legislation , as that opinion was assented by a majority of 145 last February . —Mr . WinrEsroE said there was a great distinction between the representative principle and the elective principle , and Mr . Vernon Smith had com plelelj * mistaken the tenor of the bill No . 2 , when he said it embodied the representative principle in the constitution of the council . It was the elective prineiple only which was there embodied . —Sir Edward Colebrooke recommended the
withdrawal of the amendment . —Mr . Crossley said they had already been told that there could be no legislation on church rates that session ; and also that there -would be no legislation on . reform . Now they were further told that tliere could be no satisfactory legislation for India ; and he demanded to know what they really meant to do , for , if they suffered the session to pass without legislating in some way for India , that House would be a laughing-stock for the whole country . —Mr . Gregory , in deference to the obvious feeling of the House , withdrew his amendment , reserving to himself the right of again bringing it forward on a future occasion . The motion was then unanimously agreed to . The report of tlie Committee of Supply -was brought up and agreed to .
THE HASLAR GUNBOAT SLIP . On the report of the committee of Ways and Means being brought up , Mr . Bentinck put a question as to whetlier the method of hauling up gunboats at the Haslar Slip had been devised by the civil Lords of the late Board of Admiralty , or whether it was done with the concurrence of naval officers . —Sir Charles Wood said the questiou was neither a new one nor a naval one . It had long been under consideration , and he , with every member of the Board of Admiralty , thought it a very good plan to protect the gunboats from the weather . — Sir . Charles Xapiek thought that the boats were not hauled up in a proper place . —Mr . CoitRY said there was no intention upon the part of the Admiralty of applying any portion of the 5 O 0 O / . voted on the previous Friday night for the Haslar Slip in any other way than for the launching of the ships . —The report was then agreed to .
MILITARY CADETSHIJPS . On the order for going into Committee of Supply , Mr . Mossell moved an address praying her Majesty that no alteration maybe made in the existing arrangements which regulate the admission to cadetslups in the Royal Artillery and Royal Engineers . —Mr . Lefuoy , Sir Fkelxerick . Smith , and Sir William Williams spoke against any alteration . —General 1 ' kel , premising that he had made no alteration in the system , and that the principle of competitive examination would continue ? , dissuaded the House from adopting the motion , although he suggested an inquiry as to the best method of educating the scientific branches of the army—The motion was supported by Mr . ISuxton and Mr . I > easv . — Mr . Sidnky Heubuut observed that , although the nomination system was gone , that of competition had been put back . He deprecated nuy further inquiry as miperlhious . —The discussion was continued by Mr . II . G . V-ajwittaiet ( who I supported the inotioii ) , 3 Mr . Pi ; tj ; k O'Bkien , and Lord I A . Vane Temi'Est ( both of whom objected to tlie present system ) . —Mr . lioi : m ; cic said that tho motion , in its present form , would prevent auy improvement , and : that the House ought to know what is the actual stake of things . —Mr . Monhell made a verbal alteration in : his motion , to xncet Mr . lioebuek ' s objection ; Mr . Wal ,-I i'ole recommended that the matter should bo left to the i Secretary for AYar ; and Captain Viviajn urged the neceHsity of immediately settling the question . — The House then divided , -when the motion of Mr . Monnell Avas virtually carried by 217 to 177 . i 5 Xcx . sk i > utiks im . r ,. Ou tho order for the . Hecond rouding of this bill , Mr . Dkasy pleaded for the removal of certain local burde . ns in Ireland to the Imperial Bxchoqtier as a setoff to this tax . —Mr . Pktkk O'Hkikn moved to defer the second reading for six months , and this amendment whs seconded by Mr . Ksmiixuk . —The . S <» i , H .: i'roit- ( i « - NioitAL observed that thu grounds upon which tlie ! increase , of the duty upon Irish spirits had hitherto been resisted had boe . 11 practically shown to bo . UhiHory . — Objections to the cquuli / . atwm of the Spirit . Duties wvro otVerod by i \ Ir , CIiukian , Mr . M'Cann , Mr . (!< h ; . \ n , Mr . Kiuiv , Mr . M'Kvoy , and Mr . M'Cauvhy ; and some ol these objections wore umwored by Lord N a as . — Upon a division , the , second reading was curried by 2 t ! 7 to JI 5 . Thu C 111 . 1 . HKA IIosrn-Ai , . Hill and the . KxoiiKO . tri ! K Hills Bill were respectively reud a third time , utul passed . I . OM 1 > ON COKl'OHATION 1 UI . L . Mr . Bainmh moved tkat liui-vo bo / rivon for the . Corpo-
T$0. 4<2' D, Miyij 130».J _ X . Ji J2i S...
T $ 0 . 4 < 2 ' d , MiYij 130 » . j _ x . Ji J 2 i Sj JU ± \ . AJ J 3 JA ,. & 11
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Citation
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Leader (1850-1860), May 1, 1858, page 3, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse2.kdl.kcl.ac.uk/periodicals/l/issues/cld_01051858/page/3/
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