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- OPENING - OP IHE .. .. TiND CONFERENCE.
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a rp£XTKRS' HALL, MANCHESTER , C Mosdat,...
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O of Mr^onalson ot ^^^wt^^^^^^^^ ^.. ^ r...
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O^^^ „„ :. Hffr/ ' r - : - JL^ °
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VOL. E. NO. S432; LONDON, SAIUBDAY^ ^l^R...
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the credentials of Mr. Canning; Mr.^onal...
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of the mem^ I propo^m| |P , ~ L / ' ^^^ ...
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Transcript
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Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software. The text has not been manually corrected and should not be relied on to be an accurate representation of the item.
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- Opening - Op Ihe .. .. Tind Conference.
- OPENING - OP IHE .. .. TiND CONFERENCE .
A Rp£Xtkrs' Hall, Manchester , C Mosdat,...
a rp £ XTKRS' HALL , MANCHESTER , C Mosdat , Dbc . 8 , 1845 . «« . iinE of delegates held in the above Hall : ¦ % * J 2 ? Ab « h of December , 1815 , it was moved t ° r Tfc and seconded by'Mr . Dixon , that Mr . 1 * -iirfon be MDOinted the . chairman of the concieit lB 6 j ( r flobsonmoveo-as an amendment , that J ^ vMirath be appointed chairman . -Thisproposi ^•^ s ^ jected to on the ground that Mr . M'Grath , ^" i ^ Be a delegate , could not at as chairman ; the ** dment was therefore withdrawn . « tocnnw * , , . B ¦ naving taicen xne cnair
^ , Sherrington , creden-• iT * ere delivered in & om the following places : — ^ £ r cabertson / fram Carlisle . j ^ ' James Brown , from Preston . i ff ' Shenington , from Scotland . .. ^ " Ilobson , from Huddersfield . Mr ^ ' Knight , from Lambeth . Mr ! Shaw , from Leeds . jlr ' G . W . Wheeler / from Rouen , Boulogne , and Beading , jlr . SaunderSjirom Nottingham . — Messrs . Dixon and'Leach , fitom Manchester .
Mesas . Cuffay , from Westminster ; and Taylor , I i ^ i Askton , [ thoughunprepared with their creden-St were allowed to take their seats . v -Caf & y moved fliat a committee of three be ap-Jiatei to draw up roles for the guidance of the conflnce ; Mr . Hobson seconded the resolution . Mr- &• ^ ' Wheeler moved , and Mr . Dixon ^ nded , that the conference assemble ' every mornjp , dping itsatfings , at nine o ' clock , and adjourn at Uffilre , to Assemble at two , and adjourn for the j jvatfive . ¦ . . - li ia the credentials of the delegates had been jaded in , and standing orders had been agreed jjun , Mr . O'Connor rose and said : — Mr . Chairman ' and Gentlemen—I consider the
pgsent the most fitting time to offer to the eonfer p , « an analysis of my own views upon the several Qu estions that are likely to be submitted to the conference . I regret that severe indisposition has compe lled me to rely more upon what I have casually j Uliered , ;&» Da ^ jj ^ p ^^ dire ^ tow , tlian a more ttose cwrfercneevmh them would Jiave put me in p ossession of . Gentlemen , bat for . this circumstance , irii (^ I «©^^ Bkr lore ^ hbrobviite , I would very isctwilfy have devoted the short time allowed to me , Jjefore the meeting of conference , to have prepared a fill digest of my opinions . Under all . the circum stances , I have thought it to be ' the wisest plan to reduce what Phad'io say to writing , and I now beg jo submit the result of my own thoughts to your consideration . Gentlemen , I shall commence with the
OBJECTS . The object of the association is to locate its mem * bers upon the land , whereby the working classes may ^ afforded an opportunity of judging of the real value of their labour in a free market .
THE MEAXS . The means by which the association proposes to realize the object in view , are by purchasing land in ihe wholesale market , and when purchased , to subdivide it into the most suitable allotments for the use of individual members ; and when so subdivided and leased , in perpetuity to the members , then to mortgage or sell the reserved rent , to enable the trustees to make further purchases , with a view to the location of more of its members , and soon , till all have been provided with their respective allotments according to their several amounts . Thus , the means are to he realised by co-operation , and the object is to be achieved by the adoption of such rules , and theirrigid application in economising and fostering the means of the society , as this conference shall dense .
BULKS . Perhaps my remarks , nnderthishead . may bemore properly considered as a running comment upon the object , means , and prospects of the society ; and first in importance stands the great question of legal protection—enrolment . . ^ Gentlemen , as far as I can collect the general opinion of { he members , it is decidedly in favour of en * raiment , and therefore I am bound by my duty to the body , as well as by an interest in the success of the plan , which , will be best served by promoting confidence , to abandon and forego all my own prejudices upon the subject of enrolment .
The legal guarantee given ' to the membeis under enrolment are very great , while the pecuniary ad . vantages cannot be lost sight of . - The legal advantages , are , firstly , the priority of claim , which the law gives the association , in cases of the death or bankruptcy of any of the officers having the custody of monies , property , or securities of the society ; the assignment of counsel by the court , and also of soliciior , freeof expense , in eases of disputearisingbetween the members and their officers . The pecuniary advantages are partly embraced in the legal , as well as
exemption from all stamp duties ; and when the questions ^ fa ^ sfer and leastog are taken m ^ and supposing a solicitor to charge two guineas for a long -stamped rigmarole of a lease , and suppose the society , from / first to last , to rammer 10 , 000 , here is of itself as saving , from enrolment , of 20 , 000 guineas , independently of all othersavings . Gentlemen , this is one of the great means at the disposal of the working classes—co-operation ; and it is by this means charteredspcieties , whethernponthe high seas or the high road , are enabled to beat down all individual com
petition . Next to enrolment , gentlemen , comes a wise appli cation of tie means to the end ; and f rst in importance , to this branch , comes the thing promised for thefhing paid . The thing paid is £ 210 s . ; the thing promised is two acres of land , of a specified quality , a COttagethatJeosts ^ SO in building , and £ 15 , as capital , to each member , whenlocated , to carry on operations . Now , Gentlemen , you will see at once what ^^ er se , or considered alone , without its relative contingencies would appear an impossibility , namely , that a society should give each of its members £ 15 , and only receive £ 210 s . as the price of the whole . Gentlemen , you
will at once see that much of thesuceessof thesociety must depend upon the undiminished value of the thing bought and to be sold again . The prospects of all succeeding occupants will mainly depend upon the terms upon which the first drafts are located . Now , gentlemen , as all should be bound to all , and as all should have , as nearly as possible , equal rights ; and as those first located will decidedly be best off , we should show , to all expectants , that the earlier realist , tion of the hopes of someare , in somedegree , compensated by the certainty of the object being achieved by alL To this end I suggest the propriety of the £ 15 advanced standing as a lien against all who receive it at an interest of 5 percent , added to the rent , until
every member of the association shall have been located upon his allotment . Gentlemen , this will preserve and keep alive a continuous brotherhood be tween those located and those to be located ; and those who " are postponed will have the satisfaction of getting 5 pereent . for the money advanced ; and as the health of thesociety will be more and more developed every day , " we may conclude that those who are amongst the latest occupants will have their reward in receiving their £ 15 , discharged of interest , as the premium for delay . Gentlemen , I do not propose that this 5 per cent , upon the £ 15 shall be sold or mortgaged , but that it shall beareservedrent , always to revert back to the society in one shape or another , and always for the purposes of the members .
Gentlemen , the nest apparent difficulty , with which you wfflhave to deal , will be the amount of rent to be paid by each ; but here I think the dullest will see the impossibility of establishing any fixed rent except by scale , which does partake of as much fixity as you can insure . Thus , if you say that a member shall pay £ 5 a-year for two acres of land that costs £ 40 , that is £ 20 an acre , anda house that costs £ 30 , you say as distinctly , without stating the very fact , that the member who gets two acres that costs £ 60 , or £ 30 an acre , shall pay £ 6 a-year , and the member who gets two acres that costs £ 30 , or £ 15 an acre , shallonlypay £ 410 s .
Gentlemen , the next branch of the subject to which I shall call your attention is to the question of amount ; whether two or four acres shall be the society ' s standard . For myself , I can very well appreciate the desire of a person , with a largefamily , to possess himself of that quantity of land to which he eu pposses he may have the labour required for its cultivation in his own family ; and , therefore , I am for allowing every member to exercise his own judgment upon this head , while I would still enforce the inability of a man , with a small family , to cultivat en two acres to the highest state of perfection
A Rp£Xtkrs' Hall, Manchester , C Mosdat,...
However , this is entirely a subject for the consideration of the shareholders themselves .. Thenext point to which I would direct your attention is one of considerable importance ; it is , as to whether selection of occupants shall be made by priority of payment " b y ballot . Upon this point , counsel has only given his opinion in favour of priority , lest the laws made against gaming and lotteries should interfere with the enrolment ; but upon being reminded that the cases so far differed , as regards our association , and those who purchased tickets , some with the certainty
of getting blanks ; whereas , our rules provided prizes for all , although the acquisition of them by some is postponed to a later period . Counsel / therefore , has merely given the preference to priority , lest the adoption of the ballot may lead to disappointment . For my own part I think the details to . carry out the principle of priority would" "be much more cumbrous and difficult of management than those to carry out the ballot , and , therefore , I am decidedly in favour of the ballot ; while , of course , it will be understood that none are eligible to ; ballot except those who have paid up their full shares . ' . '
Gentlemen , the next branch of the subject towhich I shall call your attention is the mode of carrying . out our object by the purchase , sub-division , and sale of estates . Here the two means of realising-further funds , either by mortgage , or sale , present themselves . In the one , I see not only difficulty , but disagreeable probabilities ; in the other , I see not only agreeable probabilities , but cheering certainties . For instance , we purchase , say one hundredacresof land , for £ 2 , 000 , and we expend £ 1 , 500 upon the" erection of cottages , and pay £ 750 in the shape of advanced capital , at the rate of £ 15 to each member . Now , this makes a total of £ 4 , 250 , which , if we offered for sale , may be sold before the value of the plan was tested for fcwenlyyearsphrchase , or £ 5 , 000 ; whereas , if we kept the first allotment for . two years , mortgaging it at
three-fourths of its value , at the end of those two years the application of the labour of fifty families to the 100 acres would increase the value of the purchase from twenty to thirty-three years , the highest rate of purchase that is given for landed security . I will explain it more familiarly to you . If you attemptto sell as soon as you purchase , the purchaser will purchase at the then value of the land ; whereas , at the end of two years , what each tenant held for £ 5 ayear , asd which , mind , would be all that we could sell , would be worth £ 8 a year , or more , from the application of labour , and that £ 8 a year would be the purchaser's security for £ 5 a-year ; and for that he would give as large an amount , and larger , than for government security . Now , twenty years purchase for £ 250 a-year will be £ 5 , 000 ; and thirty-three years purchase would be £ 8 , 250 .
Gentlemen , these are the peculiar features of cooperation that I would impress upon your minds . I am , then , for mortgaging , in tfce first instance , and thereby realising , subsequently , as large a fund as possible for the benefit of the members—a benefit that must result from a fair testing of the plan ; and , mind , what has been done in the first instance may be subsequently relied upon by all future purchasers . Now , g entlemen , I come to a portion of my subject which never has been discussed by the public yet ., I mean not only the probability , but the certainty , of our funds , or rather onr security , being increased as follows : — We will suppose that 100 members are about to be located from amongst those who have paid np in full , and consequently the most wealthy
When the land is purchased the allotment takes place before the houses are built , and I think we may fairly presume that out of the " 100 who have paid up in fulL _ upon an . average , each would expend £ 19 ,. more upon his cottage than -the- society guaranteed ; that would increase the value of the property by £ 1 , 000 ; while it would not make the member , who had spent it , liable to any more than £ 5 a-year rent . This you will find will be the strongest preservation of the link of brotherhood and membership , and will have the effect of proving to the poorest that the wealthiest , while they have been the first provided for , have not been discharged from the ulterior duty of lending themselves and their funds to the accomplishment of the general objects of all .
Gentiemen , these views have been set out partially in many of my earlier letters ; now I condense them for your consideration , always bearing in mind , that though the society gives but £ 70 worth for what it charges £ 5 a-year , yet , in their individual capacity the working classes could not procure the same advantages for £ 10 a-year , or indeed at all , as there is no market open for sucIl traffic . Gentlemen , I beg to keep your minds rivetted to this question of
incorporative power . I beg to remind you that societies , incorporated with the individual resources of a number of poor individuals , are enabled to compete with , and finally to overcome , all the competition of the wealthiest individuals . This is , then , our strength ; we overcome the law of primogeniture . We bring the raw material into the free labour market , and we offer it in competition with the slave labour price of wages .
Gentlemen , I am not inclined to treat any suggestion upon this subject lightly , provided it is made in a proper spirit ; and , therefore , I shall offer an observation or two on that emanatingfrom Manchester I mean the propriety of bringing the allotments up to a certain state of hearing by the expenditure of the promised capital , under judicous management , before the more ignorant of the occupants should enter upon the undertaking . If this is left to their own option , I not only have no objection to the principle , but I further volunteer my services as their unpaid steward and instructor , deducting from their
original £ 15 capital , what has been judiciously expended in labour , and allowing them to take possession of their allotments in full bearing , and when the fruits of my industry shall be ripe . Gentlemen , if my health permitted , I should have entered much more minutely into this important subject . I regret that my ten days'illness has deprived me of the benefit of the counsel of my brother directors . In the short time that my recovery allowed , ! have gathered as much of their views , as I could , whereas , if I have misunderstood , or mis-stated them , they are at perfect libertv to object to what I have now offered , as this
manifesto must be taken solely as my own opinion . Gentlemen , I presume that you all have an equal interest , with myself , in this gigantic , national scheme , and if any have joined in the hope of possessing themselves of £ 15 for £ 2 10 s . paid up , and if the alterations , that I consider necessary in the rules , should alarm such speculators , I have that reliance upon you , gentlemen , that the dread of losing the gamblers will be more than compensated for by the establishment of that firm principle upon which the alteration will base the rights of the poorest , as well as the prior claim of the richest . Gentlemen , my object is , that no man should be discharged of his
liabilities to the association until every member of the body shall be first provided for , and that then the general savings from the co-operation of all , shal ] be equally , honestly , and honourably divided amongst all . Before I sit down , I will read for you one of the guarantees which enrolment confers , and one which , in a money speculation , should be courted by every officer who has aught to do with the funds of the society ; and , gentlemen , bear one thing in mind , and never lose sight of it , it is this—enrolment » osu beneficial to ihe members . If the officers had any notion of playing the rogue , they would be for nonenrolment , as , then , the members would have no protection against their frauds . Enrolment ,
therefore , IS TOR THE MEMBERS ; XOX-ENROLHEKI IS FOR the officers . Gentlemen , before I sit down , I will read for you one of the advantages of enrolment . The act that I hold in my hand has the following provision : — " And be it further enacted , that if any person already appointed , or who may hereafter be appointed , to any office in a society established under
A Rp£Xtkrs' Hall, Manchester , C Mosdat,...
the said recited act , or this act , and being entrusted with the keeping of the accounts , or having m his hands , or possession , by Ivirtue of his said office or employment , any monies or effects belonging to such society , or any deeds or securities relating -to the same , shall die , or become a bankrupt , or insolvent , or have any execution . or attachment . orother ^ recess issued , or action , or diligence ; raised against his lands , goods , chattels , or effects , or property , OF estate , heritable or moveable , or make any assignment , disposition , assignation , or other conveyance thereof for the benefit of his creditors , his heirs , executors ,, administrators , or assignees ,, or other persons having legal rights , or the sheriff , or other officer , executing such process , or the ; party using such action or diligence , shall , within forty
days of the demand made in writing , by the order of any such society or committee thereof , or . the ; major part of them assembled at any meeting thereof , de « liver and pay over all monies and other things belonging to such society to such ' person as such society or committee shall appoint , and shall pay . out of the estates , assets , or effects , heritable or moveable , of such person , all sums of money remaining due which such person received by virtue of his said office or employment , before any other of his debts are paid or satisfied , or before , the money directed to be levied by such process aa aforesaid , ^ or which may be-recof vered or recoverable under such diligence ; , is paid over to the party issuing . such process , or using such diligence : and all such assets , lands , goods , chattels , property , estates , and effects shall be bound to the payment and discharge thereof accordingly . "
Now , gentlemen , there ' s a strong inducement to force me to get rid of all my prejudices against enrolment . There's protection * which nothing , but the law can afford . Gentlemen , there are other subjects , such as the appointment of trustees , and directors , and their duties , the obligation of officers , and the question of finance , to which I shall" take a fitting opportunity of directing your attention , with the view of making your laws as stringent as you can to enforce a just discharge of those several duties , I conclude , by once more reminding you of our power , which consists in our incorporation ; and further reminding you , that the triumph of free trade
principles may result in our ability to purchase slices of the estates of the . aristocracy at one-half their present value . I now remind yon , that the . rules , upon which this society has been established , were neither considered perfect or binding , and the more you alter and correct them , if those corrections and alterations are calculated to give stability to your project , and security to the members , the better the members will appreciate the change , for they are a considerate and a thoughtful people . Gentlemen , I have now done more than I was justified in my present state of health in doing—I sit down , leaving the question- to your guardianship . '"" ,
AFTERNOON SITTING . Air . Canning , from Wigan , not being furnished with credentials , was allowed to take his seat until his credentials were produced . Mr . Cuffay moved , and Mr . Taylor seconded , "That each motion be handed to the chairman , in writing , previous to its being put , andthatthemover , and other speakers , be allowed ten minutes each , and the mover of the resolution five minutes in reply . # . VaUance , / romBarnsIey , produced his credentials , and took his seat according ly * Mr . O'Connor moved , and Mr . Leach seconded , the following resolution : —" That the conference do now resolve itself into a committee for the purpose of
considering the alterations to be made in the rules . " The motion , after discussion , was withdrawn for thepreseht . . J ' Mr . Hobson moved , and Mr . O'Connor seconded ; "That ; in the opinion of this conference , it is highly essential tothe success of the Chartist Co-operativ * Land Society that the rules should be enrolled under the Benefit and Building Societies' Acts , inasmuch as such course will alone give security . to the members , " and limit the responsibility of all concerned to the extent of the society ' s operations . To jU ^ nd the conference instruct the Soard ' of direoi ^^ Hfc cure such enrolment , with the name of tnPWwy remaining as it now stands , if that be possible ; but should the revising barrister ufuse to certify with such name , the directors ara / further instructed to change the name to that of tHNational Co-operative ¦
Land Society . " . W . Mr . Dixon moved , and Mr . Shaw seconded , the following motife : — " That the directors be em " - powered to { fflomit the rules , as agreed to , to Tidd Pratt , Esq ., for enrolment ; and in the event of the name , as it at present stands , being an obstacle , and in the event of Tidd Pratt refusing to enrol , that then an appeal be made , as provided by law ; and in the event of the name standing as an obstacle , that then the directors be empowered to confer with the several districts , through the delegates now assembled , with the view to taking the opinion of the members upon the subject . " Mr . Cuffay objected to the alteration of the name ; and should it not be possible to get it enrolled without its alteration , that the enrolment be not persisted in .
Mr . Leach said , the object of enrolment was to guarantee the working classes from their being robbed by the middle classes ; for , although the name of the society is the Chartist Co-operative Land Society , yet its members were not confined to the Chartist body ; a large portion of its members are riot , and never were , Chartists . Under the present rules there is no remedy for the dishonesty of any of its servants ; not that he suspected any of them were dishonest ; but unless . enrolment was conceded , it would be the destruction of confidence . Mr . Knight : The interest of the society requires that its rules should be enrolled either with or without the name . Mr . Vallance was instructed to support the enrolment of the society , if the name , and objects remained in their present state .
Mi-. G . W . Wheeler would not vote for the enrolment if the rules , if the objects , or the name were altered . Mi-. Shaw would vote for the enrolment of the rules with or without the name . Mr . Brown : One portion of my constituents are in favour of enrolment , either with or without the name , while the other portion have instructed inc to vote against the enrolment , if the name was to be altered . Mr . Canning was instructed to support the enrolment of the rules at all events , the name being no object to his constituents . Mr . Leach moved the following ;— " That in the opinion of this conference , the Land Society ' s rules should be immediately enrolled , and that the board of directors be instructed to accomplish the same with or without the name . "
Mr . Doyle ; There are a great number of persons waiting to join the association , but who will not do so unless it is enrolled , as there is no guarantee for the honesty of the officers of the society , for although no officer has at present absconded with any money , still that is no reason that they might not ; for these reasons he should support the enrolment . Mr . G , W . Wheeler moved , and Mr . Gilbertson seconded the motion — " that the rules be not enrolled unless the name and objects are retaine d . " Mr . Hobson : It is not in the power of Tidd Pratt to refuse the enrolment of the rules , even with the name as at present , provided those rules are in conformity with all the provisions of the Benefit Society's Act . The intentions of the society must be stated in the rules . In his opinion , the passing of tho last resolution would be an act of suicide .
On a division there appeared—For Mr . G . W . Wheeler ' s amendment ... 2 " Mr . Dixon ' s 7 " The original motion S Mr . Hobson moved , and Mr . Cuffay seconded , a motion for the printing of Mr . O'Connor ' s statement , which was carried unanimously . The conference then adjourned till nine o'clock tomorrow morning .
TUESDAY MORNING-Djscembbr 9 . Mr . Sherrington in the chair . Mr . Hobson :. There are several points in the statement of Mr . O'Connor that require explanation . If the system of priority is introduced , it will be necessary to keep an account of payments , even to the fraction of an hour . The conference are here to legislate against probabilities and possibilities . The ballot gives every man a chance to be located , for these reasons he would move , — " That , in the opinion of this conference , the mode of selecting occupants for the allotments , by ballot , from among those who have paid up their shares , is calculated to give the greatest amount of confidence to the members generally , because it precludes favouritism , and prevents all intrigue , fraud , or collusion . " Mr . Smythe , of Bradford , seconded the motion ,
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5 KSS * ™ * o ^^ to gWe ^ ability PtSSi ^ great : c ' ohfustoa ' into the m mSBK'W % aWof , thesociety ^" - - * ¦ S & j ^ S T-i ^ Wqtod : to the " : baUot , supported pri 0 S & W ' and " moved ,- " That pnS of pay vi ? fe-i ^ " 5 # ^ oceupation . y nf ™ SS / ° m & fflM ' «*«' the opinion » ¦ SH ? 2 E 5 a & ^ " ^ he ballot ; fearini -that SSi taSSM-n ^ ^ Von-to : the ! i re ^ ution W w ^ o ^ baUotinguntefeAeiBhaU . have paid ! u SL ^? tB f ?« ftK'theifurther benefit of * mfy - ** £ the question of priority , what tfSSit ^ i mlth %° Se P artl (* > vho Ld paVd up at the . present time .. If . you establish , th * hnllot . fnr
th 1 ? - fc ? * W *^ y ? U P ^ hd priority , of pay , sat ^ ac | ro ^ ffiongthe-shareh bldersr - — - --^;«^ ffi ^ / - « » oti 011 ^ Mr ; Knight , " rrt & t & JSi $ e ^ % tion of . an bMcould not be of * S ° fra ^ bad p ^ n ' representea ; 5 %$ *? £ ^ » % * WWHe 8 yStem : ofpriority would . tot gxve general ' sat & faction . ; There were many ^ tatjes to , iphich ^ ere inslirmountable . H < ^ SP # d ; to those whc 7 had already p i JI ^ W : « Andwhen thirtyorforty en : ¦ ? H e tor , | fiontv . tp be . aetjminea ?^ He ^ hought the b ^ S ? W i- plan ; itgaveto ' allafair chance ,: arid wesJ ! Oi 5 a ? Hs . practicable ; whereas the principle ' of f prioritfcepBhi ^ ot . be carried out witix pricision , and it gaveJojapttal a decided advantage ; over poverty . Mi » CnfUo .: .. Thorn . \ , » . » . » # . A ! Bi . ™ fL . ~ U-L .. T . — i ,. i \?? \? gieau uuieieuce uei i
^"• x ~ ynit- ' - * . 'y » o > weeu u » - lotand « lot—Jhe ballot is putting in , and lot the taking out o fhe , lot , b y allotment , is theputtingthe names into ai urn and drawing from themthe " prizes . A gwat deridepends upon priority . If the society be divided irtojectiohs , then vote for priority . Mr . Wheebrf ,: i As far as he himself was concerned , heirosmost ; d « idcdIy in favour of priority . The fltiecejs oftlu society depends upon priority of payment . A greit majority of members are in favour of priority of payment . There will be no difficulty in keeping the accounts , for , should it so happen that forty or fifty pay up in one day , the sooner the location would take place . Mr . Clark j Mr : Wheeler ' s plan cannot be carried out , and I deay that the majority of the members are in favour of priority . i Mr rLeach V How can priority of payment be reconciled with jusJce . Amah paying his'threepence aweek is not inthe same situation as a man who can pay the whole iown .
Mr . Dixon : A great majority of his constituents were in favoui of the ballot . Mr . Cannin ] was decidedly in favour of the ballot . Mr . G . W . Vheeler said that he should support the motion of Hr . Clark as the one most conducive to the interest ofthe shareholders , and the only one on which the conference could be consistent . Mr . Hobson ' s principalobjection is , that it invested a discretionary powerjnthe hand of the directors ; but his own plan is omn to the same objection ; for if three districts were to be chosen , they would still have the opportunity oj chosing which they would select ; but surely members were not going to elect to this office men in whomjthey had no confidence .. Mr . Hobson objects to the notion of Mr . O'Connor on the ground
of the competition it would occasion , whilst the same objection applfcd to his own plan ; besides it tied up the hands of tie directing body ; and they must be aware that laid often realized * fictitious price , as many parties vere compelled to part withlandata much lower pace than its real value ; and from the present railway mania it was likely that the directors , if their handa were not tied up , would probably purchase land nuch lower than the present market price . Mr . Hibson had said a great deal about Irishmen and | Scotchmen leaving their homes and coming to this country ; but if they did come it was
because they could get a better living here ; and wherever a mai could get a living that would be his home . Anottur advantage of Mr . Clark ' s motion was ; that if 10 ) persons were located , coming from 100 different Iccalities , it would give a greater impetus to the society . Men would say—Tom Smith was gone , arid it will soon be my turn—which would be a great inducement to many to join this society . : Mr . O'Connor moved that the conference resolve itself ihto . ; a ; iconimitfeBe ,., and that no speaker be allowed to occupy the time -of , the conference more than two minutes . .: ¦ -. ¦ ¦ --J- ¦ 2 Mr .. Poolesecdndedtheregolutioni
MivBrown :: His : cohstituehts . were , m , favour of the ballot , 'unless thesociety wasdivided into districts , and then they were in favour of priority of . payment . Mr .- Poole : There will be great injustice in priority of payment , unless the society is divided into , dristricts . Mr . Harrington . - Only one placeh ' n' Scotland is in favour of the priority . If the conference decide in favour of the ballot , a considerable portion of his constituents would retire from the society . Mr . O'Connor : No person that cannot pay up his share in full will pay any portion of his money , if the time of closing the society is stated . The legitimate members and founder of the society have paid their money on the faith of the ballot .
Mr . Cuffay : His instructions were in favour of priority . Did not believe that the society being closed at a particular day would cause any diminution in the payment of shares . Mr . Shaw was in favour of the ballot . If priority of payment be allowed , those who were able would pay up , and swamp the whole concern . Mr . Leach moved that rule 16 should form part of the amended rules , with the addition that the society close its first district when the society consists of 6 , 000 members ... Mr . O'Connor seconded the motion ; where there is necessity for alteration do it , but do not alter where
unnecessary . Mr . Hobson said , selection by ballot means precisely what the parties mean by election by lot . Lot means lottery , but the word being used might enable the revising barrister to bring in the acts of gaming and lottery to bear upon the question of enrolment . Mr , Doyle had heard some members of the London district complain that priority of payment would be attended with great in j ustice . Mr . Taylor : The man who comes forward and pays his whole money , is rendering a great benefit to the
poorer payers . Mr . Saunders was in favour of priority of payment . Mr . Hobson : Objections raised b y him had not been answered ; the principle of priority would entail great expense ; what objection to the ballot ? On a division there appeared—For the amendment 12 " Motion 5 A question arising aa to the propriety of carrying out the last resolution , Mr . Hobson said , it does not follow that , having confirmed a principle , you should enter into all the details connected with it . Mr .. Clark moved , that theselection of localities be intrusted to the board of directors . Mr . M'Grath seconded the motion : It was very unwise and very unjust to limit the exertion of the directors , for the rule did not compel a man to go upon the land , though successful .
Mr . O'Connor repudiated the position in which Mr . Clark ' s motion would place the directors—no objection to incur any responsibility that the subscribers of : the society imposed upon the directors The proposition of Mr . C rk was premature . There was land enough offered for sale every day in the year , and it might be obtained in any district .
AFTERNOON SITTING . Mr . Clark said the reason of proposing the resolution was , that the directors would have better opportunities of knowing where land was to be purchased —with some parties , situation was no object . He knew a party that was willing to go within ten yards ofthe gates of hell so that he got upon the land . . Mr . Hobson : The onerous duties sought to be imposed by the conference on the directory is likely to produce angry feelings among the shareholders—they would be inundated with suggestions , and every little plot of land that was for sale would be forwarded to them—and unless that plot of land was bought it would produce great dissatisfaction and jealousy
amongst the unsuccessful . Divide the country into districts , and when sufficient money is in hand , draw from those districts ; and if the first is not successful , go to the second , and so on . Most likely there would be no occasion to proceed further than the first , for there is always sufficient land in the market to be bought any day in the week . Those enthusiastic persons , who say that they would go within a fewyards of the gates of hell so that they could get upon the land , would be the first to complain ol favouritism , if unsuccessful in obtaining the ballot . Mr . Smyth , in seconding the amendment , said , it the present motion was passed by the conference it would destroy all confidence in the directory , and give rise to the charge offavouritism .
Mr . 'Clark : It has been already laid down , that no person shall be allowed to ballot unless he has paid up his share ; but , according to Mr . Hobson ' s plan , if Yorkshire was the fortunate district , it might bo years before those of the Manchester district would be located . Should wish to see land purchased , in the first instance , in those districts where the most members were , Mr . Wheeler would support the views advocated by Mr . Clark .
A Rp£Xtkrs' Hall, Manchester , C Mosdat,...
Mr . O'Connor would suggest that , [ before , the purchase of land in any locality , a ballot take place amongst all the member and a majority should signify to the directors whether they would wish the land to be purchased . He was sure that the greater the responsibility vested in the members , the greater the satisfaction would be ; lie moved thefollowing resolttion : — "That when the sum of £ 5 , 000 . shall be paid . the directors shall then proceed to ballot from amongst the members who have paid up their shares in full , and where the required nnmber shall be so elected , that then the membersso selectedshall
dio-, , ceedby such means as the majority shall agree upon , for the purpose of selecting a locality where the purchase of land shall take place , and the directors shall bebound by such decision . " Mr . Clark asked the question—would not a greater price , be . paid for a small quantity of land than that for ^ greater quantity ? Mr . Hobson :, The amendment proposed by Mr . O'Connor is unwise .. He would not like to see the necessity for the shareholders , in this society , to leave theirhomes . ^ . ^ -Mr-Wheeler opposed the adoption of Mr . O'Connor ' s amendment .
Mr . Poole said—Did the shareholders know where the land was about to be purchased , no doubt that even . the-threepenny shareholders would make a struggle' to . get the money to pay up their shares . , Mr , ; M Grath , had heard , * .: nothing to alter jhls opinion j s »^ to allowing ithe directorsto have the choice . of selecting the place for the purchase of the land . -More obstacles would be created b y Mr . Hobson ' s plan than that proposed by Mr " . Clark . Mr . Vallance supported the proposition for enabling ihe directors to buy tho land . If this power was left m their hands , no doubt it would give the greatest satisfaction . .
Mr . O'Connor : If the difficulties suggested against his amendment had weight , thoy told with a double weight against the plan of Mr . Hobson . Mr . Leach : No doubt there was a great desire , among the shareholders , that the purchase of land should be near the places where they lived . The cost of removal to a distant portion would take away the object of the society . The parties who obtained , the prizes ought to have a voice in the selection of where the land should be purchased . He supported the amendment of Mr . O'Connor . There could be no difficulty in dividings the country into districts . Mr . Cuffay : As far as England was concerned he wat a cosmopolite ; but the London shareholders do
not expect to have land purchased' for them in the suburbs ; they are willing and ready to take their chance . He had a feeling for home , and if . he gave way to his feelings , he should prefer the county of Kent . Mr . Hobson : By Mr . O'Connor's plan there would be no opportunity of getting at the opinion of the different shareholders . There . were objections to his own plan . It has been urged , that it might be the lot of Manchester to be years before the members of that locality would be located ; so that , in fact , it would be years , under any circumstances , before the shareholders of any locality could be located . Mr . O'Conneor : The adoption of Mr . Hobson's plan wonld make the directors a mere nonentity .
Mr . Leach : One of the principles of the People's Charter was , that there should be equal electoral districts , and as there would not be any difficulty , under that document , in apportioning the country , in cases of elections , why should there be any difficulty in carrying it . out in the land plan . Mr . Clarke : The directors are bound to pay attention to the wishes ofthe subscribers . Mr . Hobson's plan cannot be carried out , because it will not only give priority to persons who have paid up their shares , out also to those who have not paid up . Mr . Taylor : The price of land never can , nor never ought to be , an object with the directors . Mr . Dixonsaid : To buy land for twenty-five cannot be accomplished at the same price as if the
purchase was to be made for £ 100 . He proposed to divide the number of shareholders paid up into four districts . The removal of parties from home would have material effect upon the objects of the society . Mr . Doyle said , that Mr . O'Connor was going directly in opposition to all his former statements and writings : as he had formerlystated thatlthe purchase of a small quantity of land would cost more , in proportion , than that of a larger quantity . . The best possible plan to adopt was to leave theselection of land to the directors . •• • Mr . O'Connor explained . .... . _> , Mr . Hobson : There never was a subject that was not > open to objections , and with a view to embody the ideas of the members of the conference , he would move the following resolution : — " The directors shall , in their purchasing and drafting of occupiers , be guided , as far as practicable , by the principle of providing allotments for the members , so as to render it unnecessary for a family to remove far from home . To this end , when the necessary amount of capital is
so subscribed , they shall classify the members who have paid up their shares into sections , guided by locality , and before they commence operations they shall place as many slips of paper as there are in a suitable vessel , each slip having the name of a section written on , and all being folded up alike . Then an indifferent person shall be appointed to draw these papers out of the lot , and in one of the localities so drawn shall the first purchase be made ; if practicable , preference being given to the first drawn . Out of the members residing in , or contiguous to , such district , who have paid up their full subscription , shall the occupiers of this particular plot of land be selected ; and the same rule shall be observed to regulate the locality of all the subsequent purchasers and allocator . " It is not necessary ) that the directors should give notice of the place where they intend to purchase . By giving notice of intention to purchase it would cause greater competition amongst the bidders . Prudence , therefore , would suggest the propriety of the directorskeeping it asecretas to when and where they were coming into the market .
Mr . Cuffay objected to the alteration of Mr . Hobson's motion . Mr . M'Grath : Mr . Hobson seems to dread competition , and no doubt competition is to be dreaded ; there is a great many who would gladly sing the requium of the land society . Mr . G . W . Wheeler said , that the motion of Mr . Clark was the only safe plan that could be adopted . You must know when to get the land . Land is not always either let or sold at its real value . Home is that where a man can get an honest living . Mr . Saunders was opposed to the plan of Mr . Hobson . They had heard a great deal about home , but it was impossible for the conference , or for the directors to legislate , so as to locate every shareholder near the place of his nativity ; he should , therefore , support Mr . Clark ' s motion .
Mr . Leach : It should be an instruction to the directors that they should purchase the land near the residences of the successful candidates . It would be a stronger inducement to shareholders to support the society if they knew that the land would be purchased in or near the several localities to which they belonged . Mr . O'Connor insisted that the ballot must take place before the purchase was made . Mr . Vallance : We have been taught to believe that the rules of the society required but little variation ; and , therefore , he should vote for Mr . Clarke ' s motion . Mr . O'Connor would withdraw his amendment if Mr . Clarke would embody it in his motion .
Mr . Hobson's amendment ., „ ....... 3 Original motion as amended 13 Mr . Clarke , having agreed to amend his motion according to the suggestion of Mr . O'Connor , the following resolution was submitted to the conference ; — " That the selection ofthe locality , where the purchase of land shall be made , be entrusted to the board of directors , it being imperative upon them to make such purchase in the district where the greatest number of members , who have paidjup their shaies , may he resident . "
WEDNESDAY SITTINGS . Mr . Sherrington in the chair . The roll having been called , and the minutes read , Mr . Clark moved the rescinding of the resolution come to yesterday , inasmuch as it would compel the directors always to purchase the land in those districts were the greatest number of paid members resided . Mr . M'Grath , in seconding the motion , said that no doubt they would be charged with inconsistency , in asking the conference to undo what they had done ; but the directors saw great difficulty in carrying out the resolution . Mr . Wheeler objected to the rescinding of the resolution .
The Chairman said that the directors , by Mr . Hobson ' s plan , would be too much confined in their operations . He considered that the resolution proposed by Mr . Clark , and carried by the conference yesterday , was the best that could be adopted . Mr . Hobson moved that the house resolve itself into a committee , and continue in committee until the whole of the principles be settled . Mr . Cuffay objected to the motion . Mr . Leach seconded the motion . On a division , there appeared for going into commmittee f Against it 5 Correspondence was read from Wigan , containing
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Vol. E. No. S432; London, Saiubday^ ^L^R...
VOL . E . NO . S 432 ; LONDON , SAIUBDAY ^ ^ l ^ R 13 ; 1845 . ^ - Z £ & B *& t ' : - ¦ - •¦ - ' - . - ; . . ¦ ' -- ¦ ¦ ' , > :. v- , »» ve 8 hillipg 8 and / Sixpence pe * .- ; Qnarler
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the credentials Mr . Canning ; . , * ^ rwi <&; ~ Mr . * Galladtoerof ^ W ^ ... Mr . O'Connor contended that , the principles of . the ,. . sbcietycduldriot be c arried but unless the resolatjon - passed by the ^ conference yesterday remained on-tue - minutes . :- . - ¦? ¦ - ¦ - ¦ .- ¦¦¦¦¦¦ ¦ :- ¦¦ ¦¦¦¦ .,, A ^ „ Messrs ; Clark-and M'Grath ultimately ^ withcji eiy their resolution . ' ' : ^ 1 •;•' ' / ,. ' ^ y ¦ ¦ : ;¦' . ; .- ¦ ¦¦ •;¦'• "¦¦ '; . " Mr . M'Grath : The ebjectof the "' directors is *© make the ru ' es as perfect astheypossibly could . ^ . ne ;; , did not wish the conference to stultify itself , andcon- . eluded fay moving ' . ' -That Great Britain be divmed into districts , to be distinguished by Nos 1 , 2 , 3 , Ac , : and that the directors be guided , in purchasT , ing land , by the majority of free members in the'districts ; but land shall not be bought a second time in any district till a location take place in each . « . , Mr . Clark secondsd the motion , which was camea unanimously ¦ \
. , ... Mr . Hobson moved , and Mr . Doyle seconded the following resoluton , " That the number of districts be five . " ¦ - ' ¦ ¦ •' - ¦ - " - ' ¦ ¦ ' — > iv ' i , d - -. ;' -.. -, v ,..: ^ , 'i > :... > ¦ . ¦ ¦> u-Mr . Wheeler movedj and- | tfr i iTaylor i 8 econded ,, th 9 , motion , "That the number ofidiatriots ? be v tWO-r ; - England and Scotland . ' i ^ iTheso ^ ty . j ; coifld : notjbo i < . i . . .... carried out unless the-ii ^ utfon ^ pi ^^ stood . ¦ ¦ i . ' jJrt .. ttj ^ 'jwriwf' ^ uS ^ t . wi ^ 'JJi' }' " Mr . Leach : The division of . the . eouhtryJiinte diSfe ^ r . - tricts is the best : plantlwt . ' Wnpe * dopted , * and ^ ef . present resolution will notstnitifysthei acts -ox y yesterr . y , day . " ¦¦' ' -V- '' . ' ' ¦ — -j j .. : ' .. . ^ v'j j ' ; ;) Mr . Dovle : Entirely-cMeredtwIthMr . Clarkjialr ;> though the seconder ol the rewlutipn pasVd , -y # pj £ : n day , that the present reBolutioiT doeanot ^ tultirpSflk ' . ' , previous acts of thecohference ^ l ^ S fji . ^ n '/ rsiis ^• • Su- " -V ? Mr . O'Connor : WbatisbeingdonehowisdoingAn ; , ;;) v * act of in to Manchester
justice , ivSWiE ? 9 ti ^ $ QMH number of the ManchesterfBUtonberp , ' ^ will be satiated , and , by ; th » 6 iaean ? , $ he ottferAloc . ar ,. > r . lities will sooner become ; etititled ; to ; tbe ; b ^ whole plan entirely depends np ' on ^ hepra ^ ll ^ piifc i i of purchase , allotment , sale / andr ^ p ^ rcliB ^^ th ^ ri ¦ ., ; allotment . : ¦ : -i , : >¦¦&; :, & v ^ iulv | V ^" oiifiS-H < .- --.-. Mr . Vallance : Had Mr . Clark ' s motiorii-. passedV-- ;< yesterday , been discarded by Mr . 0 'Cqrjh j 6 ^| sflgfWr ; . *• tion , it would have been ^ muehbfliiter . ^ HerS ^ ottld ,. ¦ -,., {¦ however * now , vote for Mr .-Hobso ^ siriotion . No ¦ , doubt when it becomes generally known . the country .:, is divided into four . districts ; tlu ^!^ wUl . uei 8 CBatir , ' ... competition in paying up : tb ^ rSubscription . 'ihu ^ Ml-i & i / . Mr . Taylor .: The ' cMrfttexu & m ^^ mass and not for individuals . . ment . The conference seemed very diffident in vesting Mr . Cuffay would vote for Mr . Wheeler ' s amendpower in the hands of the directors .
Mr . Canning would support the motion of Mr . Hobson , but could not agree with some of the speakers that if the resolution of yesterday had stood , the land would have been purchased in Lancashire . Mr . Shaw : The motion of Mr . Hobson came near to realise what had been stated , not to removed the shareholders from their usual place of residence . Mr . Hobson : You should not put the whole ofthe members either in Lancashire or Yorkshire into one district . For the amendment 4 Original motion 12
Mr . Hobson , in moving the following resolution ,, stated , that it would , ? as far as practicable , remedy the evil of causing parties to remove from their districts . "That when the directors have selected a locality , and made a purchase in accordance with the previous resolutions , the requisite number of residents for the allotments , on such purchase , shall be selected out of the members resident in such district who have paid up their shares . " Mr . Smith seconded the motion . . . Mr . Knight would oppose'tho motion of Mi * . Hobson with all the energy he possessed . Mr . Dixon then moved the foilowingamendment : — "That the ballot be taken from the whole of the shareholders inthe association who have paid up theiy shares . " Mr . Leach seconded the amendment .
Mr . Vallance : Observations had been dropped , he would not mention any names , that the conference were coming to the same conclusion as last night ; that he denied ; the question last night was whether the selection of occupants should be made before the purchase or after . No doubt that where the greatest number of members were , there would be the greatest chance of the members being located . Ho should , therefore , vote for Mr . Dixon ' s amendment . Mr . Cuffay would vote for Mr . Dixon ' s amendment . Mr . Doyle : Every man who has paid up his share will have his chance of the prize . Do not clog the shareholders , for if you do you will do a great injury and injustice to the society .
Mr . Clark : In case of parties not wishing to locate in the Manchester district , they might give notice to the general secretary , who would then com « municate with the district , and thus enable the shareholders in that district to have another chance of a prize—this is perfectly applicable to every district . By this means , without bartering tho shares , you satisfy the wish of both parties . There are numbers of shareholders in Devonshire who would relinquish their prizes if they were certain of getting a location near their own residence . Mr . Sherrington ; The mnjority of shareholders , no doubt , could wish to reside in their respective dis-Jxicts . \ . .- ' ¦ . '" "
Mr . O Connor : Ton can never excludethe adoption of chances from operation in this society . There are plenty of men in Manchester who would be glad to give a bonus to members who may not wish to be located in the fortunate-district . By Mr . Dixon ' s motion you give every member a chance ; bat if you ceufinc the chance to a particular district , it would be a very great injustice . You further the adoption of the principle of " Home , Sweet Home , " by making the ballot from the whole members . Mr . Hobson : What does Mr . Clark propose by his resolution ? Why , he proposes that the ballot , in cases where the parties refused , or declined to locate where they had obtained the prize , be extended to the whole shareholders . ; thus giving them iwo chances .
The resolution proposed by himself would provide the greatest amount of benefit to the shareholders . Mr . Leach : The discussion ofthe question of the transfer of shares is very premature . The object of the amendment is to give the chances to the whole body of paid-up shareholders . Mr . G . W . Wheeler moved tho following resolution : — "That the whole ofthe proceedings ofthe conference , as related to Mr . Clark ' s resolution of the previous day , should be rescinded . Mr . M'Grath moved the suspension of the standing orders , which was seconded by Mr . O'Connor . On a division—Mr . AVheeler ' s amendment I Mr . Dixon ' s 12 Mr . Hobson ' s .. „„ .. 3
AFTERNOON SITTING . Mr . O'Connor : We have affirmed a great many p rinciples of the society—we have affirmed the enrolment—the selection of occupants by ballot—and division of the country into districts . The next subject of importance was the mortgage or sale ot land . He said that tho object of the society was to purchase land in the wholesale market , and sell it in the retail market , for the benefit of the working classes . Tho more labour you employ upon the land the greater the value of that land . Seeing the value of labour , that is the principle that should guide yoar consideration , as to the mortgage or sale of the land . Home property is not so valuable a security as a tee-farm rent . In the first place , wc must commence with mortgage . There are two descriptions
of mortgage—you purchase an estate and pay so much down , leaving the remaining portion on mortgage ; in the second , you purchase an estate and sell it immediately . Quit and crown rents are sold at forty years purchase . By the application of labour you raise a thing of £ 5 a-year to the value of £ 8 a-year ; a principle should bo affirmed , that it should be left to the discretion ofthe directors , whether the property bought should be sold or mortgaged in the first instance . He then moved the following : — Resolved , " That the trustees and directory shall have the power to raise money upon the property of the association by loam mortgage , or sale , for the purpose of carrying out the objects of the society . " Mr . Vallance : The shareholders of Barnsloy had
instructed him to suggest that the estate should he mortgaged instead of sale . Increase the value of land from the application of labour . If , in the case of the land being offered for sale at the expiration of the third or fourth year , is there not an inducement to the holders to exercise frugality , and very likely save sufficient to purchase their own allotments . These being his ideas upon the subject , he was decidedly i « favour of mortgage , and concluded by seconding the resolution . Mr . Cuffay supported the motion . Mr , G . W . Wheeler stated that he was instructed to support the system of mortgage instead of sale , and that some of his constituents were ready to advance £ 800 by way ef mortgage .
Mr . O'Connor stated that ho had a promise of a Loan Fund to the extent of £ 20 , 000 , as soon as the rules of the society were enrolled . There is no difference between loan and mortgage . Mr . Knight supported the motion . The resolution was carried unanimously . Mr . Hobson stated that he was aware that it was the intention of some parties to introduce a loan fund in connection with the society , and would , therefore , move that in the opinion of this conference , it will greatly conduce to the security of the society , if all advances of money out of the capital of the soclc , t 7 ' * ° tno occupant , to enable him to occupy , should be considered a loan bearing interest , for which each borrower shall give security .
Mr . O'Connor : In this case we must not only affirm a principle , but we must also show our ability to carry it out . If wo are able to pay back the money , it is an act of justice ; but if not able to return the money it is an act of injustice . By tho operation of co-operation , the society will be enabled to give to every member £ * 70 worth of property for the rent of £ 5 a-year . I propose , for the protection bcrs , for the honour of the society , — [ Continwed hi our Fifth Page
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Citation
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Northern Star (1837-1852), Dec. 13, 1845, page 1, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse2.kdl.kcl.ac.uk/periodicals/ns/issues/ns2_13121845/page/1/
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