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- Imperial Parliament R.M«≪M-T 'Nt Iharttatnmtt.
- Imperial parliament r . M «< M-t ' nt IHarTtatnMtt .
M 0 XDAY , Feb . 12 . TTOrSE OF LORDS . —This House sat for a short x- ! . mill disposed of some routine business , among jfieh ' was the appointment of the Committee on the TrUli Toor Law . HOUSE OF COMMONS . —Sranar Tbaffic on -p tivxKXS . -Mr . Locke rose , pursuant to notice , to v ke President of the Board of Trade , whether it « Ts the intention of the government to introduce , ) urin" the present session , any measure for securing to thepublic on Sundays the limited use of those ra ilways which wereopenforpassengertraffic during
Mr . Labocchere said , the government hadno present intention of proposing a measure to compel nilwavs to carry passengers on Sundays . At the came time , he desired pot to preclude himself Ismast the right of bringing forward such a meacure if he should see cause for doing so . The Kailwav Commissioners had expressed their feelings rerv plainly upon the matter , by refusing to sanctfonbv-laws for shutting up certain lines on Sund ' svs-l / hear , hear)—and he could not too strongly express his own individual opinion that it was perfectly possible to open railways on the Sabbath under such proper limitations as should , avoid any
unn ecessary desecration 01 tnat day , ana snouia De perfectly compatible at once with the convenience of the public and the proper respect due to the Sabbath . ( Cheers . ) He hoj ^ d that public opinion would be strong enough to induce those companies which had taken a diiferent view of the subject , to adopt the course which was more in accordance with custom in this country . He confessed he was most reluctant to introduce anything like a compulsory measure upon a point involving the conscientious religious scruples of any considerable body of people , except in cases of extreme necessity ; and he was happy to say that half the railways in Scotland did at this time allow trains to run on the
Sunday . ( Hear . ) Drouet ' s Eacpeb Establishment . —In answer to a question from Viscount Dbtoojcihig , Mr . Buses stated , that Mr . Drouet had certainly not been convicted of any offence whatever ; but he had been put upon his trial upon two or three criminal charges , and that circumstance was sufficient to induce him ( Mr . Baines ) not to say one word more upon the matter- ( Hear , hear . ) Tfhen the cholera broke out in Mr . Drouet's establishment , in the beginning of January last , there were 1 , 372 children in the house , who had been sent there by thirteen different unions . As soon as the cholera jnade its appearance , the Poor law Board issued circulars to all those onions , pressing on them in
the strongest terms the necessity of providing , without delay , suitable places for the reception of those children , in order that they might be removed at the earliest possible period . That circular had lx > en repeated from time to time . Twelve out of the thirteen unions had been able to provide places for the reception of the children , which they deemed suitable . The thirteenth union—that of Chelseahad reported to the Poor Law Board that , notwithstanding- every endeavour on their part , they had not been able to meet with a suitable place . And , no doubt , there would be a difficulty in procuring suitable accommodation for them . The workhouse was already full , and the owners of private property were naturally unwilling to receive into that propertv persons coming from an establishment where thflrfiolerahad existed . The number of children
now at Mr . Drouet ' s was 223 , consisting of those belonging to the Chelsea Union , and of others from other parishes , who had laboured under cholera , but were now convalescent although they had not yet been certified as in a fit state to be removed . He was happy to add , that no fresh case of cholera had occurred * in Tooting since Saturday , the 13 th of January last ( Hear , hear . ) California . —Sir De L . Evans said that he understood there were six ships going from London and Liverpool with merchants andj > assengers to California , men of high respectability and of different professions . It was also probable that a still greater number of ships would go . It was understood that they required some sort of protection , and he wished to know how far it would be afforded .
Sir T . Babixg said that the general instruction to the admiral on that station was to attend and give protection to trade . He had already received a communication from the officer which showed him that the subject had not been neglected by him , but he could , not hold out any expectation that a ship would be permanently stationed in California . Sir De L . Evaxs said that he understood the orders were for a ship to touch once in three months . Habeas Cobpcs Scspessios ( Ireiasb ) Bill . — On the motion that the House go into committee on
ildsbilL Mr . Johx O'Cosxell moved , as an amendment , that it be an instruction to the committee to introduce such provisions into the bill as shall guard and save intact the right of the subject to hold meetings to petition for the enactment , repeal , or alteration of Acts of Parliament , or for redress of grievances , or other Constitutional object , without other or further restriction of that right than existed under the operation of the common and statute law of the land , previous to the passing of the Habeas Corpus Suspension Act of last July . His object in moving this amendment was to " bring out tie meaning and scope of the powers to be given by tlie bill , " which he maintained were as yet but imperfectly understood .
The Solicitor-General opposed the amendment as totally inconsistent with the objects of the bill , at the same time that , if adopted , it would not tend to the accomplishment of the honourable and learned gentleman ' s own object . The bill did not interfere with the holding of public meetings for legitimate and proper objects . Such meetings might as well be held under this bill as before its enactment , or as they would be held after its expiration . Some discretion must be given to those on whom the bill conferred the powers created by it , but such as were rot guilty of treasonable practices had , in public opinion , a guarantee against these powers being put in force against them .
A debate ensued in which Mr . Roche , Colonel Hawdos , Mr . Reynolds , Mr . Ajjstet , and Sir G . Ghet took part , and which was terminated by the withdrawal of the amendment . The House then divided upon the motion for going into committee , and the numbers were—For the motion 84
Against it ... 14 Majority for —70 The House then went into committee . Iu committee an amendment proposed by Mr . AssiET , requiring an order of the Lord-Lieutenant ia council to put the act in operation in each case , was opposed by the Atiorxet-Gexeral , and lost on a division by seventy-nine votes to twelve . On the second clause , Mr . J . O'Co . vjtell again proposed the amendment he had previously submitted as an instruction , and divided upon it—the result being eleven for and one hundred and five against . With this division the opposition ended , and the bill passed through committee without alteration . Relief of Irish Distress . —The adjourned debate On the proposed vote of £ 50 , 000 out of the Consolidated Fund , in aid of certain unions in Ireland , was resumed in committee .
Mr . P . Scbofe postponed the amendment , of which he had g iven notice , until the report on the resolution was brought up . Mr . Geattas said that he was going to bring forward a motion which would show that the Irish members were not there to beg ; they did not want money—{ hear , hear , )—and they could do without it . ( Hear , hear . ) He was sure that would be satisfactory to English members . ( Hear . ) These were Ms promises , but it remained for them to sanction the plan by which he would provide a sum of money for the relief of the distress of the people oflreland He proposed to devote the quit and crown rents of Ireland for this purpose . He could assure hon . gentlemen that the money was available , as mig ht be
seen in the bank-books of Mr . Latouche , of Dublin , "wherethere were such items as these : " Paid to fyieen Victoria the sum of £ 12 ; " " paid to Queen "Victoria the sum of £ 20 . " His object was that this money should be left in Ireland . Englishmen objected to this money being applied to relieve Irish distress . Agreed . But then , leave the quit and crown rentsin Ireland . There was then the Irish Society , who drew £ 58 , 000 ayear from the country . "lvn en Engush members said that they were coming down to take away English money , his reply wasthen leave the Irish money in Ireland , and do not bring it to this country , to beautify Carlton House Or Windsor Palace ; there was neither sense , nor instiee . nor propriety , in doing this , and then
turning round and saying , ' * Oh ! you are always cominw here to ask for money to relieve your distress . " Ihe hon . member for Tavistock ( Mr . Trelawny ) was debarred from calling them either mendicant or minacious But independently of this , there were the rents of the great absentees , which were drawn from his country and spent in this . Hehada list of them , and he would give their names . There were tte Duke of Devonshire and the Duke of Buckingham . He , to be sure , was sold out . His property bought £ 400 , 000 . Mr . White , formerly a mejnber of that House , bought three townlands for £ 2 o , 0 W . for sale
Be knew that thev were afterwards set up , and sold for £ 14500- The Times and the Morning * Wand the Ibmina Herald had been abusing the J » 4 members and the Irish people . They had Runted and insulted them . They would defend themselves , and show that the mischief of Ireland ^ sefrom the absentees . They might be excellent 3 but they were bad landlords ; they might be ?? y good Englishmen , hut they were detestable v * Proprietors . ( laughter . ) Then there were the lf > i 3 of Hertford and the Duke of Bedford . The 7 ?* of Bedford was a very good man , but he had a ""W&Me Irish tenantry . ' Well , there was the Mar-
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quis of Conyngham , who said that he had not the means of iniprovinghis property . Where were allhis meansspent ? Intbiscountry . There were theMarquis of Lansdowne , the Marquis of Anglesea , the Marquis of Donegal , and the Marquis of Bath . The tenantry of the latter were in a wretched condition ; the property -was quite bare—not a tree scarcely to be seen on any part of it . Then came the Marquis of Ely , and Earl Fitzwilliam , a most excellent man . But he knew for a fact tKat there was not a cabin between hi 3 own house and Rathdrum ( all of which belonged to the noble lord ) that was not levelled with the ground . Then there were Lords Essex Audley , Maryborough , ' Middleton , Albemarie ' Boyle , Clifton , Ashbrook , ArdenStaffordLifford Quis of Convnffham . who said that he had nnf . tlm
, , Templemore , Colonel Wyndham , and Mr Sidney Herbert , All of these might be excellent individuals , but they resided out of the country ; and any person who knew the value of a resident gentry could from this circumstance account for the misery of Ireland . Mr . Grevflle , Mr . Lane Pox , and Mr . Ormsby Gore had also large properties in Ireland . Let a taxbe imposed on these absentees and then ttey might keep their £ 50 , 000 . But it was said that they always came to that House for money , and that this was but the beginning of another series of grants . He did not understand this insulting , idle , and unmeaning language . He had already mentioned One fund , and he would now mention another . He would go back to the petition of right , when the
poor Catholics were duped after granting £ 130 , 000 to King Charles . But that was not all . In 1782 the Irish Parliament gave £ 20 , 000 to support 20 , 000 seamen , which they voted for the protection of England . That was not aU . "When the late Earl Fitzwilliam was sent to Ireland the Catholics were promised their rights if they paid £ 250 , 000 . The money was paid , out the moment it was paid the compact was broken . The letters of the Earl of Carlisle and Lord Fitzwilliam proved that . Here there were £ 130 , 000 , £ 20 , 000 , and £ 250 , 000 , making altogether £ 400 , 000 , which had been given to this country by the people of Ireland . He would take the absentee rents drawn from Ireland at £ 3 , 000 , 000 though he believed it was nearer to four millions . This drain existed for the last fifty years , which made a total of £ 150 , 000 , 000 . He defied the
ablest arithmetician to say that these figures were wrong . He did not see the hon . member for Tavistock in his place , but he thought they ought to raise a blush of modesty on his cheek . Did he still think that they had swindled the House out of £ 50 , 000 ? Why , this £ 50 , 000 would not do , nor fifty times £ 50 , 000 . ( Hear , hear . ) It was better to speak out and be honest . ( Hear , hear . ) The people of Ireland were not ungrateful ; ingratitude Formed no portion of their character ; but when people talked of having subscribed £ 600 , 000 for the relief of the Irish distress , they talked of it as if it was all subscribed by English proprietors . He denied that , for very many of the subscribers were large Irish landowners . He would quote a few lines for the benefit of the hon . member" for Tavistock :
To John I owe some obligation , But John has lately thought it fifc To blaze it out through all the nation , So John and I are more than quit . Gentlemen in that House blamed the Repealers , but did they not remember that there was an Englishman who wanted to separate the two countries ? Let them do justice to the dead as well as to the living . It was an English nobleman , and an ecclesiastic , who wanted to separate the countries , and rode into Dublin at the head of ' 5 , 000 troops , saying to Lord Charlemont that they would settle the question with blood . That was the conduct of the Earl of Bristol , who was then Bishop of Deny . Bui Lord Charlemont said , ** 3 fo , we will settle it
without blood . " They had then 100 , 000 armed volunteers , and 200 pieces of cannon . Were they minacious then ? Well then , with regard to the £ 50 , 000 , was it your money ? An hon . member had asked how long the £ 50 , 000 would last ? Why it would last no time . ( Laughter . ) Where a shilling ¦ was collected only two-pence went to feed the poor man , the remaining ten-pence being paid to officers . It was desirable that hon , members should know how their money had been applied . Such implicit faith had they placed in Irish honesty , that they had actually made no provision for taking care of their own money . ( Laughter . ) The most ridiculous poor-houses had been built at a cost varying from £ 8 , 000 to £ 12 , 000 . Would hon . members
believe that their agents had been so kind and generous as to give Irish paupers sweet peas and mignonette in the gardens connected with the buildings ? ( Laughter . ) So ill constructed , too , were these poornouses , that his cane would almost penetrate through them . The true explanation of this was that a body of men who knew something about the wants of the country had been superseded by those who were quite unfitted for the performance of their duties . As regarded the union with which he himself was connected , the Celbridge union , his right hon . friend ( Sir W . Somerville ) had remarked that the rate had not exceeded 2 s . lOd . in the pound . But he forgot the subscriptions made by the resident gentry . These persons , in fact , divided the
poor into four classes ; they sent to tnem at tneir houses ; they then got rid of the government officer ; and the only sum granted by the government having been £ 30 , he ( Mr . Grattan ) wouldpay the right hon . "entleman that amount , if he liked , with many thanks . ( Laughter . ) He held in his hand a book called " The Irish Crisis , " published and circulated , he believed , at the expense of her Majesty ' s government . A former hon . member for Sligo had once accused him of treason because he attended a meeting where there was a banner on which was represented a harp without a crown . The book which he had mentioned had a green cover , and it had also a harp without a crown . ( Hear , hear , and laughter . ) It began with a falsehood , it ended with
one ; it libelled the people of Ireland for ben )? poor , told them that they were slaves , and informed them that they were never fitted to take part in such proceedings as those of' 82 . What did the writer get for that publication ? If he ( Mr . Grattan ) had come to the door of the House a poor , creeping creature , demanding charity , he would have been offered a farthing ; but here was an English gentleman who had been made a baronet and rewarded by a vote of £ 2 , 000 for writing a book which added insult to injury as regarded the Irish nation . The only use of suspending the Habeas Corpus Act would be to keep Irish eyes shut and Irish ears closed to the distress which prevailed in that countrr . There was a revolution going on in Ireland
such as the Jacquerie of Francenad never dreamt of . Having begun by calling the Irish people barbarians and their priests " 3 urpliced ruffians , " they were now exhibiting Irish landlords a 3 tyrants . Where did they expect all this to end ? What was the state of Irish property ? Why , a short time ago an estate which was formerly worth £ 25 , 000 had been sold for £ 14 , 000 . Who would buy the property now in the market ? He would mention a fact by way of illustration . It happened that a person in this country lent £ 20 , 000 in Ireland against his ( Mr . Grattan ' s ) advice . The Irish proprietor had since offered to give up the whole of his property to the mortgagee . What was the reply of the latter ? " How can I go and live there ? ( Laughter . ) Will any one leave the pleasant scenes of London to go
and live on the rocks of Connemara ? " If parliament would send back the Irish gentry , he should have no desire to get rid of an aristocracy . He liked a coach and six much better than a miserable jarvey , and he thought that a limited monarchy could not get on well , without an aristocracy . But bv the course which was beingpursued towards them , the Irish people would be made Republicans and Separatists . "If you give us freedom ( said the hon . member with great emphasis ) , we will support you ; if you give us chains and slavery we will curse and hate you , and get rid of you as soon as we can . " Did hon . members think they could secure the affections of the Irish people while they taunted them with these miserable doles of money ? If
they would not send back Irish proprietors , let them tax absenteeism . Cromwell had sent Irish members to legislate in England , but the experiment failed , England had been saved at difierent times by miracles . She had been miraculously saved lately through the mistakes of a great man in France . Had the republican principle succeeded in that country , Ireland would not be in her present position . When the first cannon shot was fired in Europe , the Irish would obtain what they wanted ; England would then be ready , a 3 she had been before to grant more than Ireland asked . The tide would not always flow in favour of this country , and th * reflux , whenever it came , would , he hoped ,
trin" liberty to his own land . The . hon . member concluded by moving the following amendment - : " That the collectors of excise in Ireland be henceforth directed anddoinfuturepayintothepffice of the Vice-Treasurer in Dublin , the amount of all crown and quit rents ; and that the same be appropriated to the relief of distressed poor law unions in that The Chairman apprehended that this motion could not be entertained . ( Hear , hear . ) It was a a proposal with regard to crown and quit rents , and it was incompetent , therefore , for the committee to deal with it then . j- ' a * Mr . Gbatias said her Majesty's name did not
appear . . ... The Chairman repeated , that by the termsi of the motion , the hon . member proposed to deal with the revenues of the crown , and that could not be done without the consent of the crown , signified in the ordinary manner . The amendment was then withdrawn . Mr . Obmsbt Gobb defended the absentee landlords against the attacks of Mr . Grattan— " People could not be expeeted to live everywhere . " He had no hesitation , however , in admitting . that Ireland bad been " infamously used" by the Government of this country . She had been robbed , over and orer again , of her staple manufactures , and of her resident gentry , by the Act whichdeprived her of her "Protestant Parliament . " The sum of £ 50 , 000 would go but a small way to repair the wrongs which had been inflicted upon Ireland . The
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Whole gold of California would not suffice to place that country m a . propev position . They wanted a good poor-law in Ireland ; not such as they had now , which was a bonus upon idleness . He then proceeded to show what , as an absentee landlord , he nau done , having , amongst other things , established an agricultural society amongst his tenantry in fcugo , some of whom had " begun to perceive some merit in the plough . " He would give his opposition to the proposed grant , on the principle that it would not be wanted if Ireland were properly governed . Mr . Stafford , after briefly recapitulating what had recently been done by this country in the way of charity to Ireland , found it impossible to congratulate the House upon the prospect before it , seeing that the grant now sought was but the first of a new series . The £ 50 , 000 demanded constituted a sum which was to be applied to the sustenance of the population of twenty-one bankrupt unions , and nine others hi which serious financial embarrass-! « . n i * ™ u „* r , ,. .
ments were apprehended . To maintain the people in these thirty unions would require at least nail a million of money ; in other { words , ten such grants as that now sought . Besides , the Chancellor of the Exchequer had greatly understated his case , for he would find that in the course of a few months he would have to add several others to the category in in which the nine were placed . What would De the result of the continuance of this system ? Judging from past experience , the country would be the scene of greater desolation ana more hopeless misery in February 1850 than now . He then inveighed against the present area of taxation in Ireland , and the pusillanimity of the Government in not being prepared with measures for the modification of the Irish poor-law , the time for inquiry and deliberation
being past . The Government said that if this grant was refused the people would starve ; but on the Government lay the responsibility of the predicament . The honourable gentleman concluded by moving , as an amendment , the addition to the resolution of words to the effect , that a statement should have accompanied the proposed grant of the whole sum likely to be required for the purposes to which that grant was to be applied ; that the system involved in such grants was vicious in principle , unjust in practice , and impolitic with respect to the suffering districts themselves ; and that it was the duty of the Government to introduce , without delay . ^ neasures which would in future obviat e the necessity of applying to Parliament for such grants . Lord J . Russell contended that ministers were
in the present instance only following the course which previous governments had adopted . It was impossible to say what amount of relief might be required in particular districts ; but if £ 100 , 000 or £ 500 , 000 was at once voted , that sum would , no doubt , be demanded ; but there would be no security against further applications . He admitted that the continued application of money drawn from the taxes of England to relieve Irish distress did tend to destroy the spirit of self-reliance on the part of the Irish people ; but , though such grants were vicious in principle , there were extraordinary circumstances in which they would be justified , as in the present case , to save a population from starvation . With regard to the latter part of the amendment , he proposed in any alteration in the poor law to provide
for the greater encouragement of capital and industry , and to prevent the cases of exceptional distress falling in future as a charge on the public expenditure . Other measures as to local taxation in Ireland were in contemplation , and would be introduced during the present session . The Marquis of Granby said the object of the amendment was to saddle the grant with conditions which would obviate the necessity for further applications of this kind . Col . Sibthorp would not vote for any grant of money . He yielded to no man in humanity , but he looked upon the noble lord ' s reasons for this grant as insufficient and equivocal . Forthese reasons , and also on account of the distress which the noble lord and the right hon . baronet had brought upon
this country , he should refuse his support to this low , tricky , and Jesuitical vote . ( Hear . ) Mr . Hume rose amid loud cries of " divide , " and begged to state the course which those who objected to the vote , and those who objected to the addition , might probably take . He could not agree to the addition , because he considered it very inconsistent , first in agreeing to the grant , and then dissenting from it . He disagreed from the grant , and thought the sense of the house ought to be taken separately on that and on the addition . Mr . Muxiz , amid renewed cries of " Divide , " said it would be unnecessary for him to detain the house at any length . The other night he had voted against her Majesty ' s government , feeling that he could not conscientiously do otherwise , and now he
would vote against them again . He could not sec how the people of this country could be called upon , taxed as they were —( loud cries of "hear . hear" )—to contribute repeatedly , incessantly , and endlessly to grants of this kind , the more particularly when the house was told by more than one member of the government that the present was not to be the last grant . ( Hear , hear . ) The hon . member for Ripon had told the house the other night that he would vote for the grant , because he would not allow the people to starve . Now , when he ( Mr . Muntz ) was giving away his own money he hoped ho could be as charitable as any one , but when he was giving away the money of other people , he thought he ought to consider carefully before he did so ; and though he believed the honourable gentleman
in former days was a great authority , and one to whose opinion he would defer , yet , as he had told the House he had changed all his opinions , there was some difficulty in trusting him . For his ( Mi-. Muntz ' s ) part , he did not see any probability of an improvement in Ireland ; on the contrary , he expected it to be infinitely worse , and very rapidly worse . ( Hear . ) He saw no signs whatever of improvement there , and he believed that a deal of the distress there was to be attributed to the general system of the government . He believed that a great deal of it was owing to cheap produce and dear money . ( Hear , hear . ) He aslted the House whether there was any probability of an improvement in the value of produce ? ( Hear , hear . ) Some people talked of California , but they should
recollect that all the people of Ireland might be dead before they reached the . gold regions , and that although the proceeds of California might be advantageous , yet there must be time to bring the gold into market . ( Hear , hear . ) But , what was the state of the people of England ? Were the people of this country fit to pay these heavy calls , and ought they to be called upon to pay such calls ? ( Applause . ) Hon . gentlemen were in the habit of saying to him , " You are finely off at Birmingham—you are all well employed , and doing a profitable business ; 'i he had heard nothing of that kind at Birmingham . ( Cheers from the Protectionists . ) He had gone home on Saturday , and did not see a single man to tell him that trade was brisk . On the contrary , every one said that trade was exceedingly flat and
unprofitable , and that there were no signs of improvement at present , more especially because they were so competed with by foreign manufacturers . ( Renewed cheers from the Protectionists . ) That very morning , at eleven o ' clock , he had met ono of his family who had just returned from the north of Germany , and he asked him what was the state of trade in that country 1 The reply was— " There is plenty of trade in Germany—they manufacture their own goods there much cheaper than you can in England , and the prices you are selling at , low as they are , and unprofitable as they are , are not able to compete with the lowness of the prices of the German manufactures . " ( Loud applause from the Protectionists . ) A curious circumstance happened to him ( Air . Muntz ) lately . Some three or four
years ago the glass manufacturers of Birmingham were very anxious for Free Trade , and they came to him and said , " We are very anxious for Free Trade , and to have the duties on glass removed . " He cautioned them , and asked whether they were sure they could compete with foreign manufacture ? "Oh ! " said they in reply , "there is nothing like Free Trade ; we can compete with advantage . " He pointed their attention to Bohemia and other countries where wages were low , but they said , " Never mind , let us have Free Trade . " Well , he came with a body of them to the right hon . baronet the member for Tamworth , when he was Prime Minister , and the first thing they asked the right hon . baronet was three years' protection . ( A laugh . ) He ( Mr . Muntz ) felt naturally surprised , and said to
them that he thought they wanted Free Trade ; but they replied , that they wanted three years to prepare for it . He asked them whether three years would be sufficient , and they repl ^ gd in the affirmative ; but now the three years were gone , and it was only List Friday that he received the following letter from one of them : — Birmingham , Feb . 5 . Dear Sib , —As the import duties on flint-glass will expire soon , the trade Is , I fear , In danger of expiring also In this country—( cheers from the Protectionists )—owing to those countries whose manufactures are protected by an import duty being allowed to send all their productions here , thus keeping up prices at home by not glutting their markets , at the same time ruining ours . The manufacturers here are anxious to memorialise for a continuance of duty being imposed , as that alone can protect our trade , from the pecuiar nature of our manufacture .
( Renewed cheers from the Protectionists . ) He ^ Mr . Muntz ) wr ote to them to say , that he would do just as they liked , and that he would introduce them to the minister of the day if they desired . But this was not the only case of the kind . Hon . gentlemen might say what they liked about tho improved state of trade , but the fact was , there was an inprovement of this sort—an improvement in quantity , not in quality . ( Hear . ) They might congratulate themselves in the same manner as the man did who had the fever for twelve months , and then rose for half an hour and fancied himself a little better because he sat up- ** laugh ) ; -but there was not a solid improvement , and he feared that things would be worse . There were half a dozen trades which had vanished from Birmingham because of competition on the Continent ( Hear ) Themanufactures with which Birmingham had once a great
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Sr « fiJ poken of in thc newspapers last week as being , a very prosperous state . He alluded more particularly to two trndes-the riU-tov trade and the brass-founders trade , lie fad exr n ° nTv r ? , ° f b ° th articl « in his ^ imeT , and now not only did he not export anv , but out of fifty or sixty gilt-toy makers who were ' formerly in Bir-Zfe ; ft T T five rcmai » cd tboXol , and Tl fJ c f ^ tod very little to do . ( Hear , hear . ) The brass-founders were also very much reduced in number , and thoso that remained of them likewise were not fully employed . ( Hear , hear . ) He left the House to guess then as to what the " prosperous " state of trade really was , and whether the people of this country should be called upon to contribute to the relief of the miseries of Ireland . ( Applause ) Hon . members talked of the potato crop and Itli ' o potato rot . Why , there was no end of the potato rot . Let the House refer back to the years 1822 and 1812 , and ask themselves what was the state of
things then . Was Ireland then prosperous ? JS ' wretched and miserable . The rot with which she was afflicted was a rot that would not easily be cured , ( near hear . ) What was £ 50 , 000 amoni such a people ? ft was like a drop of water in tho ocean . ( Hear , hear . ) He was confident that out ot doors there was a very- strong feeling against granting any moro monoy to Ireland , andthat that feeling did not arise from any stinginess or niggardliness , but from a consciousness that in a short time the people of England would want something given to themselves and that so long as they continued to give to Ireland they could not expect a large re-T UC ] 1 On ° f taxation in this country . ( Applause . ) Under these circumstances , anxious as he was to do justice to his constituents and the people of Encland , ho could not possibly support tho grant . Strangers were ordered to withdraw , and the house divided . . '
For the amendment 125 Against it 245—120 On our return to the gallery we found Mr . Hume protesting against thc grant , and declaring he would divide the house on thc main question . ( Loud cries of " divide . " ) The House again divided . For tho grant 220 ¦ - Againstit 143—77 Sir W . Somerville then proposed to add the names of the Earl of Lincoln , Sir L . O'Brien , Mr . Moore , Mr . Grace , and Mr . Bright to the Select Committee on the Irish Poor Law . Strong objections were , however , raised against the name of Mr . Bright by Mr . Bateson , Sir w . Verncr , and other members , but on a division it was retained by a majority of 129 to 71 The House adjourned at a few minutes past two o'clock . TUESDAY , Feb . 13 .
HOUSE OF LORDS . —Their Lordships sat halfan-hour , and appointed a Select Committee on the System of Auditing Kailway Accounts . HOUSE or COMMONS . —The Dublin Consolidated Improvement Waterworks and Sewers Company Bill was , after some discussion , postponed for a fortnight . Mr . Hawes , in reply to a question by . Mr . V . Smith , stated that Sir H . Pottinger ' s report of the expenses of the Kaffir war had been received , but was not yet in a condition to be presented to Parliament . On the subject of Bailways in India , Sir J . C . Hobhouse stated tkat it was thought preferable that these undertakings should be carried out by private companies , but should they not be , the Indian government had come to no determination not to carry them out themselves .
Fisheries in Iiieland . —Mr . Ah-stey moved for a select committee to inquire into the state of the inland fisheries and navigation of Ireland . His object was to make the protection of these fisheries a matter of police , and to prevent improper obstructions in the rivers , not to interfere with existing rights . By the present defective system he believed not less thau * 600 , 000 a year was lost to the country . Sir H . W . Bakron- seconded the motion , thinking that it would be advisable to extend the inquiry to the deep-sea fisheries . He trusted that Mr . Anstev
would add words to that effect to his resolution . The House and government should not stop short until they put the fisheries upon the same footing as that occiipied by the fisheries of Scotland . The Irish fisheries would not be properly encouraged until they were put under the superintendence of a board , like that existing in Scotland . Sir W . Somerville would not object to the appointment of the committee , but he did not concur in Sir W . Barron ' s proposed addition to it . The motion was agreed to after a short conversation .
TiujfSFER of Real PnoPERrr . —Mr . Drummoxd moved for leave to bring in a bill for the purpose of facilitating the transfer of real property . The hon . gentleman , alluding to the then state of the House , observed that the subject did not seem to excite much interest , seeing that so great a proportion of the hon . members had gone home to dinner . ( A laugh . ) Ho proceeded to remark that there was no reason why land should not be as free in the market as any other commodity .. ( near , hear . ) He might quote many authorities who had advocated this sentiment in times past , but it would be a work of supererogation . Were it not fsr the feudal tenures which were still preserved , the disposal of land would be quite unshackled . He would not
now enter into the nature of these tenures , or show how all their general evil had been maintained , although the burdens upon the owners of land had been long since remitted ; and as he did not intend to dilate upon these subjects , he felt himself in this difficulty , with respect to recommending his measure—that he did not know upon what grounds the opposition to it could go , and therefore ho did not know what objection to answer . He could only reply at hazard to a few difficulties ' which he had heard started out of doors . First , he had been told that it was presumptuous in a person not called to the bar to introduce a bill upon a subject of this kind . Now , being called to the bar meant taking a certain number of
dinners , and paying a certain amount of fees . ( A laugh . ) And he had certainly not been able to dis' tinguish any necessary connexion between these operations and the capability of drawing a bill . ( Hear , and a laugh ) . The question then was not one in which a lawyer need bestir himself . Sidney Smith said long ago that the court of Chancery was like a boa constrictor , which could swallow the estate of an English gentleman whole , and digest it at its leisure . ( A laugh . ) Then why should lawyers bestir themselves in law reform ? They performed the office of masticators and digestors , and that was probably cnoughfov them . ( Laughter . ) No . This was a question in which tho owners of land , and those who might become the owners of land , were
the parties really interested . ( Hear , hear . ) But then , it was said , that nobody but a lawyer could draw a bill . That remained to be proved . A great many bills had been drawn up by many very eminent lawyers , which were found to be of very little use . Nay , no later than last session , a bill for facilitating thc sale of waste land in Ireland had been most carefully prepared by the highest legal functionaries of the government , and that bill , he was informed by many Irish members , was little better than a caput mortnum . ( Hear . ) In fact , it frequently proved that bills which one set of lawyers drew up , puzzled another set of lawyers to interpret . ( Hear , and a laugh . ) Here , however , he would be perhaps told that there was a Crown Commission sitting on the subject , and he would be asked whether he would not wait to see what that commission would do . Rusticus acpectat—and ho
would be a very simple rustic indeed were ho to expect any practically advantageous results from a Crown Commission . ( Hear , and a laugh ) . Again * he was told that he would be opposed ]> y tlic lawyers , ' because his bill would interfere with their interests . He repudiated such an idea . ( Laughter . ) The study of thc law was the study of a liberal profession , elevating men above sordid and interested motives —( lighter )! and he would as soon believe that medical men would object to the reception of a remedy for malignant diseaseor that military men would decry a general peace —as that the lawyers would object to such a measure as he had to propose . ( Hear and laughter ) He had once indeed heard of the members of a medical
college congratulating themselves on an unsatisfactory state of the public health , and drinking to thc progress of slow fever with three times three . ( Loud laughter . ) But he rejected such scandals , and he could assure the House that all the lawyers whom he had spoken to were favourable to his measure , and that he counted upon their kindness to supply his legal deficiencies . ( Hear , hear . ) After the fullest examination which he had been able to give to the subject , and with the fullest information which he had been able to collect , he had arrived at the firmest conviction that it was impossible to effect the object which he had in view in any other way than by the provisions of such a measure as he held in his hand . He proposed to establish a registry of deeds and lands , and no proposed that entries should be accompanied by full and ample maps of the estates referred to . In former times this / was
accompanied with some difficulty , but now that there existed a map of every parish in the kingdom , under the tithe commission , nothing more would be required than to copy out the necessary portions of that map . He also proposed that there should be a public registration of all incumbrances , of any species , upon land , but he did not propose that this should be compulsory . He left it to the discreinn of individuals . Such were the main provisions of his bill . He thought that the only objection which would be made to it was , that it did not go far enough ; but in . matters of this kind he preferred a measure which went the least possible distance . ( Hear , hear . ) The hon . gentleman concluded by moving for leave to introduce the bill . Mr . Pag e Wood seconded the motion . ¦ £ he Soliciiob-Generai had no objection to the introduction of the bill . It would be premature for him to express any opinion upon its merits until it
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had been printed and m the hands of honourable members . Nobody could differ from the lion , gentleman as to the importance of the subject , or the desirability of forwarding generally his views ; ami he ( tho Solicitor-General ) thought lie mi < rht say that the present measure was a step in the right direction towards carrying : the hon . gentleman ' s views into practical operation . These views could only be put in force by a system of registration , and no registration could be complete without a good system of maps . The subject was , however , connected with great difficulties . This he might say as haying paid great attention to it , but he had no objection to the bill , while ho would be happy , so far as he could , to give the hon . gentleman any help in his power with tho view of carrying his views into effect . ( Hear , hear . ) Motion agreed to .
Bribebt at Elections . — Sir J . Pakixotov moved for leave to bring in " a bill for the better prevention of bribery and corruption at the election of members to serve in Parliament . " He had intended to explain the provisions of the bill at length , but from what lie had heard since he entered thc House he was led to suppose there would be no opposition to its introduction , as he believed tho House felt very generall y thc evils of tllO gTOSS and notorious bribery at tho last election , Ho would state its details ou the second reading . Mr . Brotheutox seconded tho motion . Lord J . Russell said , bethought the hon . baronet had pursued tho most convenient course in reserving his statement for the second reading , when he ( Lord J . Russell ) would give his utmost attention to the bill .
Colonel SunnoKP declared he would discharge his dutie 3 to his constituents in spite of any bill against bribery and corruption . ( A laugh . ) Leave w . i 3 given to bring in the bill . Public Roads . —Mr . C . Lewis moved for leave to bring in a bill to consolidate and amend the laws relating to public roads in England . He proposed to abolish parochial liability to the maintenance of the roads and the turnpike trusts , and to take the county as the area of taxation and management ; the control of the roads to be in a committee of the quarter sessions elected by the magistrates , to be called tho County Road Board . With regard to local management , he proposed to take the Poor-law unions us the districts , and that
the county board should have the power of dividing all tho roads into two classes—viz ., main roads and branch roads . The present dobtofthe trusts , which amounted to £ 8 , 000 , 000 , ho proposed to pay off in not less than seven nor exceeding twenty years , by means of a- county roads fund and a toll , which , under certain regulations , would still be collected in the main roads . The motion was , after a brief conversation , agreed to . A motion of Mr . Trelawky ' s , to extend the inquiry of the Woods and Forests Committee to the duchies of Cornwall and Lancaster , was opposed by Lord J . Russell , and negatived without a division .
Qualification of Electors ( Ireland ) . —Sir W . Somerville , in rising to move for leave to bring in a bill to amend the laws which regulate the qualification and registration of Parliamentary voters in Ireland , said it would be in the recollection of the House that last session he submitted to tlv « House a measure on the same subject , and he then stated thc Srin ciple and object of it ; and as thc present bill iffered in no very material respect as regarded the county qualification , it would bo unnecessary for him to occupy the house for any length of time on that subject . The principle of this measure was simply doing away with any qualification requiring occupation , and substituting rating instead . He proposed that the amount of rating should be as last year , £ 8 , that amount implying' the obligation
ot paying the poor-rates due within six months ; but that , instead of their being merely paid previously to voting , as in the bill of last year , they should be paid previously to registration . In the bill of last year he proposed to leave the borough franchise as it was now , with this exception , that it did away with the payment of all rates except poorrates , which were to be paid as in' the case of the county franchise , previous to voting . He proposed in this bill to adopt the same principle with respect to the borough franchise as to the county franchise . He proposed also that there should be an annual revision and an annual system of registration , and he should be prepared to show at the proper time that this measure would not » ive an undue number of electors as compared with England . 1
Mi . A . Stafford thought it incongruous to extend the political . franchise , while they were limiting personal liberty . Mr . E . B . Roche objected to tho measure , as not going far enough . Lord Bernard condemned the bill and the whole policy of the government . Mr . Grooan suggested that before basing the qualification on the poor-rate , ministers should have provided for a uniform system of valuation . Mi-. J . O'Coxnell feared thiit , instead of increasing , tho bill would diminish the number of voters in the Irish boroughs . He did not , however , undervalue tho step now taken by the government . Leave was then given to bring in the bill Sir W . SoMERViWiE then moved for and obtained leave to bring in a bill to shorten the duration of elections in Ireland and to establish additional places for taking the poll thereat . The House tben adiourncd at nine o ' clock .
WEDNESDAY , Feb . 14 . HOUSE OF COMMONS . —Insolvent Memders Bill . —Mr . Moffatt , in moving thc second reading of this bill , observed , that it involved only a question of common sense and common honesty . The bill simply proposed to apply to all members of this house provisions which had been law ever since 1812 ( and had been found to work well ) in regard to those members who were traders ; and the House , holding to thc principle of pecuniary disqualification , ought to apply it equally to all . ( Hear , hear . ) The bill now introduced proposed to give to the Insolvent Debtors' Court powers in regard to members not being traders similar to the powers now vested in the Court of Bankruptcy in regard to members
engaged in trade , only shortening by one-half the interval before issuing a new writ , and providing that it should bo issued at the expiration of six months after a vesting order had been made . It was thought by some that the bill ought to go further , and put an end to the privilege of freedom from arrest—( hear)—but an objoction might be founded on the possibility of the sudden abstraction of a few members when parties were nicely balanced and on the day of a division , and the House might also be brought into collision with the courts of law , if a member denied that he owed the debt , and insisted that his arrest was unwarrantable and a breach of privilege . It had also been urged that the bill ought to exclude insolvents from the House
of Pccrs- ( hear , hear)—buthe ( Mr . Mottat ) lelttnat there were two ways of doing a thing , a gracious and an ungracious , and there was that sort of hereditary prejudice in regard to privilege that if the peers had originated such a measure with respect to the Commons , it would have been rejected . The right hon . member for Tamworth ( Sir R . Peel ) had remarked , in discussing this subject , that when this House gave up a privilege , it was always followed by the House of Peers ; and it was quite competent to the lords to insert a clause in this bill suspending the right of voting in their House during provei insolvency . ( Hear , hear . ) His object was to effect the good that was practically within his reach , and to consult the dignity and independence of the
House . ( Hear , hear . ) To any suggestions in committee ho should bo happy to attend . ( Hear , hear . ) Sir G-. Grey had felt it his duty last year to caution the House against the bill then brought in upon this subject , because , while he concurred in the desirabloness of tiieT » bject sought to bo attained , the mode proposed to be adopted appeared to him so objectionable that the House ought not to sanction the bill . But the hon . member had reconsidered the subject , and this bill , while it sought to attain the same object , and as he ( Sir Gr . Grey ) thought would attain it , was clear of the objections to the former bill . ( Hear , hear . ) He might have some alterations to propose in the details in committee , but ho was quite prepared to assent to the second reading —( hear , hear )—and he hoped the House would feel that there was no objection to the principles of the
bill , and would agree to this course , and proceed to the important business waiting for discussion . The bill would merely assimilate the caso of insolvent members to that of bankrupt members ; and no apology appeared to him to be necessary for not interfering with the peers , or with tho inviolability of the person of a member from arrest . Mr . Bkrnal would not oppose the second reading , but he must say that he felt that the princi ple of the bill was very much involved in the details . The House would find that for six months after the date of the vesting , order the representation of a constituency was to be in abeyance ; for the member was not to be allowed to sit or vote . The House must take care not to do a wrong to any under the pretenee of doing justice . A man might be poor without being unjust . ... would also not the second
Mr Goulburn oppose reading , especially as the House was anxious to proceed to other business ; but the bill would require very serious consideration . The hon . member had given no reasons for introducing a bill so totally different from that of last year , but had contented himself with answering certain objections ; and as to that which was founded on the bill not being extended to the peers , he would find that where the House of Commons had addressed itself by legislation to the privileges of Parliament , it had uniformly , with the exception of the Bankruptcy Act , applied the principle to all perBons having privilege of Parliament . Indeed this bill itself , in its title , professed to be "to provide for the recovery of debts from persona having privilege of Parliament . " The membors of both Houses formerly enjoyed the privilege of not being sued ia any court for debt j but By tho 13 th . of
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William III ., and by the statute of Georiro HI ., both peers and commoners wore made suable for debt , and placed upon an equality hi that respect , lormcriy the power of arrest , if it had existed , might have been made a read y TOOdc of preveiitinff mentors from attending i ,, their places in time House , and might thereby have been ma-lo a political engine ; but tho abolition of the power of an-dst onmesno process had materially diminished that danger ; and he was ready to admit that there was now less probability of abuse from the state of tho law than formerly . Though it was extremely desirable to preserve the character of the House , and not to allow insolvent debtors to be free from the provisions of the law , yet he was averse to making any particular provisions for members of Parliament .
If they did so , they would add to the natural disposition that every creditor had to recover his demands the strong inducement which a political object might give to the enforcement of his debt . And he begced to remind tho House that there had been men filling the first stations in this country who had been deeply involved in debt —( hear , hear ) —and that there had also been parties who would willingly have taken advantage of the difficulties in which those persons were involred , through no extravaganee of thuir own . ( Hoar , hear . ) Those were circumstances that ought to be well considered when they came to the details of the bill . He considered that that House had ample power to regulate this question for itself by means of resolutions , ¦ without , the interference of tho other branch of the
Legislature . There were numerous instances on the journals where the House had interfered for the protection of its members against arrest ; and they had the same power now as ever ; but if they passed an act , instead of proceeding by resolution , they could not in future make any alteration in the matter without the intervention of the other House . ( Hear . ) He must say there was much in the bill that was exceedingly defective . The tendency of it was to bring the House into collision with constituencies , a thing that ought in all possible cases to be avoided ; and it contained many other clauses which he thought highly objectionable , ( Hear , hear . ) Mr . J , Williams hoped the measure would be made to apply also to the other branch of the Legislature .
Mr . Henlkv regretted that move time had not been given to consider " the bill . It was quite clear that it was the object of the promoters , step by step , to make the principle of the measure applicable to the other House of Parliament ; and the main point was to assimilate the case of insolvent persons to that of bankrupt traders . The cases were , however , not analogous . A bankrupt trader , in giving up his goods , and obtaining his certificate from the Bankruptcy Court , was protected ever after , and such aperson might be elected a member of that House ; but an insolvent could not get clear to the same extent in thc Insolvent Court , for , though they could take his property , as in the case of a bankrupt , yet they could not givo him . 1 discharge , and the insolvent never could be elected a member of that House .
( Hear , hear . ) He had many objections to the bill , but would not take the responsibility of opposing the second reading . He hoped that in dealing witu this matter , the House would recollect that the privilege they posspssed was not a principle of the members , but a privilogo of their constituencies . ( A laugh . ) The bill was then read a second time , and ordered to be committed on that day fortni ght . Navigation- Laws . —On the subject of the repeal of the " Navigation Laws , Mr . Gladstone put a question as to whether Mr . Baines ( whose speech delivered at liis re-election tho other day , the right hon . « ontleinan characterised as manly and
straightforward ) had stipulated on joining tiie government that on that particular question he should be free to vote as he pleased . Lord J . RcssKixropliod that ministers considered Mr . Baines's services in the administration of thopoor law so important , that on his declining to take office unless on the understanding that ho should be free to vote against the repeal of the-Navigation Laws , they ; agreed to accept his services on those terms , and justified that course by a reference to the cases of Mr . Wynn and Lord Lonsdale , who , on particular questions , had voted against the respective governments of which they
were members . The House having resolved itself into committee . Mr . Ladouciieue rose to move his resolution with the view to the amendment of tke Navigation Laws : —He commenced by expressing a hope that ; the discussion of last year would enable members more satisfactorily to consider the question now , and proceeded to recapitulate the main provisions of the former bill . The principle of the existing Navigation Laws was threefold— to secure to us the monopoly of thc colonial trade , the long voyage trade , and the European direct carrying trade . The first , now that protection was withdrawn or in course of withdrawal from the colonies , we could no longer with any justice maintain . The injurious effects of our laws m this respect were strikingly
illustrated in the difficulties they imposed on our North American colonists in competing with their neighbours of the United States , and great credit was duo to them for the patience and good feeling they had exhibited under such circumstances . The next restriction , which required foreign produce to be brought to our ports in British vessels only , shutting out as it did the raw produce , while it admitted it when manufactured , operated : is a direct encouragement to our foreign rivals in manufactures ; and with regard to tnethird restriction , vrhich attempted to secure to us the carrying trade , it could be only successful so long as it was confined to ourselves ami acquiesced in by foreigners —for if every nation were to act upon it , we , as the greatest maritime nation
111 the world , would be the greatest losers—and , in fact , foreign nations had already shown a disposition to retaliate . Prussia had already remonstrated , and there was but little doubt , ' if we did not abolish the system beforehand , . Russia would , on the expiration of the existing treaty , adopt it as against us . He still proposed to reserve to thefyieen in Council a power to re-enact the restrictions , wholly or in part , with reference to any counties which should adopt a policy prejudicial to British interests ; and to allow a British register to a foreign vessel British owned and British manned , subsequent information having confirmed his conviction that English shipbuilders had nothing to fear from this competition . The wages of shipwrights at New York were not lower than in
London ; but Mr . Money vvigram nau stated , that whereas a shipwright in the United States gave a whole day ' s work for his wages , in London the worked as a combination man , and for that mischievous system competition was the true remedy . He likewise adhered to the alteration be had proposed last year , by which shipowners would be exempted from the obligation of taking a certain number of apprentices . The only material departure in the present from the former resolutions related the coasting trade . The opponents of the measure of last year were of two classes : and one , of whoso sentiments Mr . Herries was the exponent , objected altogether to its principle ; the other class avowed a belief that the time had como -when the fundamental principle of the navigation laws must be revised ,
but took | an exception to parts of the plan . M ^\ Gladstone , for example , had insisted upon the disadvantage and impolicy of retaining the monopoly of our coasting trade , a relaxation of which might purchase an equivalent in the coasting trade of America . He ( Mr . Labouchere ) had found it difficult to meet this argument on the one hand , and on the other to obviate the alarm which our coast population would feel at the participation of foreigners in their trade ; and to guard against the risk to which it would expose the revenue . lie proposed , therefore , not an abolition , but a modification , of the restrictions upon foreignersengagingin ourcoastingtrade , still confining the trade from port to port of thc United Kingdom to British vessels . Thus , an English or a foreign vessel , sailing from a British .
port , bound to a foreign port , might touch at at another British port , carry goods there , and take goods for a third British port ; or an American ship , for example , bound from the United States to London , might discharge part of her cargo at Southampton , take other goods , and go on to London , but not trade to and fro between port and port ; and tho vessels must not bo under 100 tons burden . The right hon . gentleman added , that ho had had tho assurance of Mr . Bancroft that the government of the United States would meet this relaxation of our laws by a reciprocal concession . Bills upon the subjects of light dues , the merchant seamen ' s fund , and tho measurement of tonnage , which would be the completement of . this great measure , would be introduced as soon as it
became law . Mr . Herries said , he did not intend to oppose the resolution , but reserved to himself the right to oppose the second reading of tho bill , at which it was understood the discussion should be taken . He complained that Mr . Labouchere had refused him and his friends all information as to the alteration he proposed from the bill of last year , when that information was allowed to ooze out to tho publie through the ordinary channels of communication . With regard to the coasting trade , what security had we when we had given up our exclusive privilege that America , France , and other countries would do the same ? And with regard to the
measure generally the effect of it was , that while wo threw open to foreign countries thoso privileges which wo now enjoyed—the exclusive right to trade with our colonies—the coasting trade and the lon » voyage we merely reserve to ourselves a power ot retaliating if they do not make similar concessions to us . France , which was even now taking stringent means to protect her own navigation , would probably refuse—and what would be the position of our relations with that sensitive nation if we afterwards attempted to take from her tho facilities wo gave to other countries ? Ministers should have negotiated with foreign states , and ascertained how far they were prepared to meet ua ia this eowse www
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February 17 , 1849 . _ J ^ NQRT-HERN STAR , 1 i ' ^^ == ! = S = !? " *'"* " * * " **"'** **" M" *"""*** *" * ' **' M > * '' -----1 ¦
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Northern Star (1837-1852), Feb. 17, 1849, page 7, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse2.kdl.kcl.ac.uk/periodicals/ns/issues/vm2-ncseproduct1510/page/7/
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