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^ PRODUCERS CF WEALTH. AND I 3l^THO«E WHO LIVE BY I.NDU5TRY h }- THE LA^D. I
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Note: This text has been automatically extracted via Optical Character Recognition (OCR) software. The text has not been manually corrected and should not be relied on to be an accurate representation of the item.
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u : _ When you learn that I have been ** Vd confined to the house for three days of : fl $ ^ - ^ i hare written ncsrly a whole boot , j fc * * Qeare ' s Cirra / ar , attended two public *•** » nd had daily consnltaiion vrith our » * Ab Roberts , upon the proceedings to take *•* prid » y , in the Queen ' s Bench , yon will i S ** * , } c ' ttfr upon the Land , in the present J # BoweTer , I rejoice to see tnat the subject ' ! vs «* f ^ ^^ on the attention of all classes . 1 js i ^ jguiiDg in the Times cf this morning , the h »* ^ Hcnghton , recently made at an ajndcul-^ -l ^ ' md from that I learn that the minds of
tS > . ^ T jjjers are being turned to the consideration * * oeiiisby which a market may be opened for ^^ -Tffent of labour ; which , if not done , will * the rrofi : ? of the big men , in the shape of ** - The- is the monitor now speaking who " ^ -jpelaheirirg . ^ » aa iha-t the London reporter of the Star will J . good report of my lecture npon the Land , - ltd on Tnfrday night , to the most attentive & - ^ v ^ aed icoience it has ever been my good ?* ¦ >
j ^ .- _ ^^ 10 adores ? - % * Vji I inaj with truth say , that my fondest 1 I ^ as ce more than a hundred-fold realized ; ^^ tw rei ^ on to excect ihat men who never 15 rretn field , and who only know that meat is *** -a batchers' shc-ps , and vegetables in green *^ L > we = ld be so -nxicusly alive io this all-F ^ r * fcbiec : ; however so it was . The question * "C joo ; , and grow , and flourish , and malar * , it
-3-IJ 62 V -ffiii . y v ' - > cdsj , the 12 th of June , I shall have the " " v ^ r of a practical work on small farms ready ¦ iaao 00 - ^ k nG : 2 ^ fr w ^ eontain forty-• ' H ^ tfori . ? i-al matter , with plates , illustratf ^ jys of ftblic buildings , cottages , and ground ? , E ' " « s « s * rth the plan by Tvhich I hope to see S ^ i *; tarried cat , price sixpence ; and I have ^ ones th- tim ^ I orders may be sent to H * if *«» Oldiiam-strect , Manchester ; Cleave , 1 , o ^ ar ? , Fieeistreet , LoEdon ; and Hobson , Vri rs ^; 2 r"C- ' £ ce , Leeds ; as I havo no desire to ' . ' „ r $$ wi > r : h of pamphlets Iff : upon my hands , ; i ' ai if j > oTiT&iis , which were ordered but not
Btc sr . vjts siroBif hope that in my next I may ju jVf mi congratulate you upon the successful -state of the Laccasi-er trials . I the more long { . salresult , as I feel assured that an unfavourm& " ££ 2 & ' -ion would have a very pr-judicial effect jjg ia iial : h of Mr . Roberts , who has really v ^ e j Eonomaniac upon this , to him , all-absorbvcreR . j £% " cnld Ireland ' doing her work tvell ? ¦ gz \ 1 tell you that when Pad 3 y became in jjsi ; would be an awkward customer ?
Hrai for the Repeal : but no : of the Corn j « s Your faithfnl servent , Teaegcs U'Cc > " > o : r .
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iOVSDX . —A public lecture was delivered on JaESJTeTeailis , at the Ciiv cf London Po = irical and Sesdk IiL = tiiut ' on , by Feargus O'Connor , Esq . nci > Isec , admission twopence . Shortly prerse » eieht o ' clock , Mr . O'Connor arrived , and nf mate with iond approbation . On the motion tfikCafiy , Mr . Shaw was called to the chair , Sfsuappropriate manner introduced the busivstitbe evening . Mx . O'Connor commenced by £ l 5 a | to ito ncmtere pre = ^ . DV , and expressed his sresetiat so uninteresting a snbject as the lard BEki » Te drawn so many together . The lani ly lacd&es of wily statesmen and glib philosophers biKSiirtfuIlv shrouded from the view of
workin wa , jet there was not a ein ^ ie person present » kaihe ? hape &f bread . bu : ter , milk , berf , &c T £ asbstere 5 " . ed in it The ked was the grand Bsfrezn iraeace was procured everything they Henri , were , or lived by ; asd what more wa ^ vassn ' j > show it in its most fascinating foi m ? Si " as-: was at the feottoki of every national queen , if H was & question of national taxation , the JxKU-ir tie bomm ; it if was a State Church passes , or one of demand and supply , of ezportaaicinjpcrtation , ths land W 2 s at the bottom . Vh ; lirt all qussrions of improvejeent , though Blinder tides oi enclosure bills , vrai&age bill-, iite ? K 5 iioiis of lie-land ? What was tb-aisnb mad
js * tca was low driving ^ ane men and eak » foois largh—the sulject of the Corn liin , but a qctstion of ihe land ?—( Hear , iat . ) Did they suppose that tLe House of Cokes had sat ? o many hours oh the previous an to ditcuss a question of Canadian rights 1 5 f 3 * i thing ; it ~ as thonlH com be ^ tcwh on Bri - ia or American land . C * bbeu , th 3 . treat writer c il qssuoEs dear to working men , hac established &-ig ths ; Britain had four umes more land than * b Kttssiry ; o grow food for ier popniation . ^ it EiTe power to the army and the navy?—What p ^ boc ih e Income and other taxes t—Wba : sup-P ^ -3 the Sp e-c ^ i Com-nL ^ ion , by which he and
^ nsid beec trie-d , bnt the malappropriaiicc of £ *' asa ? I ; was theey i } of political power being K 3 Ccd ; othe lind , which he was anxious to ce-BorEau ; deprive th « land of its enfranchising S ^^ a . ud it would then be bronght into the re-Ia 3 Eiris ; ien would the cation become ^ reat ^ Q po » oftiL It might be asserted , because they ^ = rfi © jtsttdedby splendour , and Ik cause foreigners ?^ : icr api ul in our funds , thai the nation was "/ - ^ powErful ; but ttat only showed the wealth fc ~ i ? f » isd the poverty of tijemanjr . For a nation ' a i * exzli , every Eiin nun be sombody ; a E » 5-srih roself-respect was like a weed in a corn ^; iad he had no hesitation in asserting thst i ? Eiii ^ men indivionalH- p- ? wcrful , by giving ^ ii- » s ?> il of the eccnrrr , they would be more
rspojei u a naiioD , botn at home and abroad , ttojer were now , even if thtj had not * guinea s J £ « uanial ceffers . So long as land gave votes , m -kj Kmld the landlords let it to these whose Hteisey eos ] d command , acd would keep it on : ffl J-- tu 3 marke-. The nocment & man com-E 2 td iwc-EjiDg for ihe benefit of sr . oiheT , ihat kbss : slaT . ; ry commenced ; ard . when he should ^ f&r Ms own individual benefit , then would ^^ ^ fedom commence . The present adoinisr ^ ' -5 wi : h tie exception of the DuKe of Buc-^ rS ^^ a few othern , might be rightly termed t ^/ 1 " * ' ^ Administration ; they had all " sacrificed ^ Jf- ^ p for political pewer . A man who did not y" * " 2 ? 1 ' ^ e qaestion might say , if land would * £ Z LTD so n-ich more in the retail market Vi , 10 " ^ eJ te « P it in the wholesile one ! It was :- * z * : ' . - / tej coaid make five or ten millions more
jLt" ttiles : r- r ' r-e retail market , they could mase T- " - " m * --oss by reta-ining pohtical power . y ~ ' ¦ ' - ' - > Cosnor illnstrared by several examples . ¦ s ^ w ^ ^ ate Church aland question ? The jT- * - ^ t , tlOt ' - ^ ind serf ? being bound up ; n the ^ ' ^ ' . : tror 2 ^ tithes , due ., as a national tax , t » " rv ' ^ r tLe tionsand acres was divided « non » h il ^ r ^ ~ - fif ' -y small proprietors he behevtU ^ -- a diErult maiter for my Lord V . faarnp " ,. * J o : n-r ^' -o to j ^ rsuade such a rural poi ^ X ^ z : " " ^ t 0 P J f ° r tfae fcpport of - ^ . ^ s f p > -o . Hd , vtrbep ^ to their principles , or to a {> aT ^^ < knned their souls once a week . The ^ t * - ^? ««' -ally a land question . What did fc . '~ l" l ^ P - 'wer of applying their labour to t ^ ttiterial for their own benefit ! and until ,. jM posse-ion of the raw material of the fi . ^ * ' 7 ^ vvld l * xct hf ahlp tn / vimnete with
^^« bia mannfactcrer . What was the new itjzj * « "was now buzz-n-4 about the ears of Sir tej . ^ - ^ lMr . U'Cc naor ) bad predicted that the itBie-v M : e t : a - parked over Sir Robert would be bt B ^? . E rcw ? -an a Chartist breeze , that it would iij v i : eh would ? prng frcm his own atmosphere it-is ! E ! L ^ ed ; " his owa cradle . lie saw the Bucks & £ " ? ; h f saw-be Berks cr ^ nng ; he saw ths * o ^ *^ calJofd en iir Rsb ~ n to power as the jj ^^ o ^ -be o could gmde the vessel , the Buekyp ™ and tee B . ^ ckstones , were arrayed against fcr ^ -V - P °£ «^ ed more power on the plat-Dcir a ^^ oa the rostrnn ; the warfare had fc ^ y SatEeed between the agriculturist who * Wm ^ /^ wniEg Etreft , and the agriculturist
^^ w lre ! and- ( hear . hear , and cheer ? , ) the tro £ J * 1 "ie aiost industrious men that the sun w 2 Ij ^ . on ! Did they demand for ttemselves I ^ oriuinrj , Ko . bM tfcey demanddd tnat ti ^» . £ honld be allowed to cultivate the soil of tow ^ e iUi ^ The landlord and the p arson were tmjj Jysjcei though the former had got five per f * i * j-V _™ i let he thonght the parson got stvecty-Csi £ [ * atinore than be onght . What was the *» oi » A ^? - " question ! it was not one of gas , ** * bd «»! ' « of shadow ; the ChurckBeTW fought f ^ ded riL ** deTii ^ sht go the spiritualities ¦« » on ^ f & ** P * & the Babitance . It was naught tfe CsST 10111 * 1116111 " - Wiat was tbe Repeal of % nrt , . i , tz ' Is " ""^ not one of the moon or stars , i ^| ^» e ai |^ t have an influence on the weather , *** J tsH i * 1 uestion of wheat , and though * cnd ^ ° $ " ** subject over and hidden ^ wfct ?^^^ ^ etapbysies , jtt sober-minded 4 ea ££ iat £ B »** that land produced wheat , and r ? S . JC ? ^ estion of how to get the land tea tttet ?" £ ; «* , be bad thought mneh , and writu > mi fie never could divine why men
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kenf from h ^ t" i ^ P **^ 8 PP wl » 0 St ? f- ra ^• l «» d-the means of obtaining their subsistence . He had heard the weeping poor man s fnend wailing that his bread should bo eo ^ , e had hear ^ the dissenting and the bie-™ fna ? K rSDn wee P « empathizing , and still coming the poor man ' s jsweat into gold ; and when he heard and read in the press of their sympathy was it not natural that the working man should suppose that they only wanted their eyes opened to the true remedy immediately to adopt it ? but the fact was , that the manufacturer equally with the aristocrat was interested in depriving the poor man of political power , and of keeping the land in the wholesale market —( Iond cries of hear , hear ) fcLe challenged ail the glib philosophers of the day to overturn bis position . With six hours notice he wooid meet any Oxonian cantab , political economist , or Malthusian philosopherand prove the correctness
, of his views on the land . That man was entitled to ms freedom was allowed by politicians of all parties , but an artificial barrier was placed between him and laeiia . ' -raldoor by whieh to acquire that freedom . The manufacturing market was overloaded with labourers . Many of his poor countrymen were compelled by dire necessity to come to the land of the stranger for that sustenance denied to them in the land of thr ir birth , and thereby constituted a reserve for the employers to fall back upon . He would open for them the Ditural market , the land , which would regulate the price of the artificial market ; and all who were tired of the rattle box—all those mothers whose children where carried to the manufacturing charsel house—all those fathers who by the glimmering of the sases , by the lighfc of the moon , dragged their ofifcpriug to unnatural toil—ail those men who were tired of living on the labour of their wires and children , would fbek to this natural
opening for thtir exertions . He wi > hed not to limn machinery , he proposed that machinery should be man ' s hoUday n . nd not Lis curse . He would aileviaw their toil not by abolishing machinery , but by subj :-e ; ing it to fair competition with the natural market ; then instead of all the wealth being in the hands of the idle , and want and misery being the portion of the industrious , the manufacturers would be compelled to do one of two things , either to close their shops or to give as good a price for labour b $ it would fetch in the natural market . Why they did not do this was because they wcro afraid of one another . Peel was tryiug to juggle the anti-Corn Law League , and the League were trying : o juggle Peel , and they well knew that both parties were
juggling them . ( . An Irishman here asserted that Cob den was not trying to jaggle . ) He would try Cobden by that test , dearer to him as an Irishman than aU otbeT ? . Would Cobden vote for the R-. peai of the Unicn ? When that que ? tion was discussed in the Hou = e , and spite of the frothy declamation of Peel and Wellington , though they might fill the House fuller than it would hold with denunciations of Ro peal ; yet they must oiscuss it— Uheei >) . He asked , again , would Cobden vote forii ! The question of Repeal was entwined with that of the land ; they were told they had not land enough to grow food , but must call in the aid of scientific legislation Let them look at Ireland—let the Irish , instead of emigrating from the land of their birth , be allowed
to remain and cultivate it ; and , after they had supplied their ewn popnkticn with bread , beef , butter , and all the good things of the land , they would have surpius enough to supply the whole English population . Tke question of Repeai was indeed a question of the land . Mr . O'Connor then related , in a hnmonroKs manner , &n anecdote of an Irishman he h . 2 d me ; the previous evening , who had left his employment , because he thought so much of Repeal , and , after giving him Is ., a ? ked him to what purpose he would appiy it ! u He would send it to the ' lint' to be sure ; " when Mr . O'Connor gave him another for himself . Mr . Cobbett had ^ aid that a quarter of an acre of land would keep a cow all the y- ur , and that its produce would be , with seventeen
day-labour , £ 57 per annu » . Mr . Cobbett , they must recollect , wa 3 not a theoretical man ; he boasted that he dug the ground , sowed the seed , and reaped ihe harvest . Mr . O'Connor then went into the minute detsils of the lend question , and most feelirgly described the miseries endured by the mass of the population , and tae comparative paradise the cDJoyaient of the land would place within their rtach . They were told he was not loyal—that he wa * guilty o ; sedition , routs , riots , tumults , rebellion , and the devil knew what beside ; he had teen found gu-itv of doiofc nothing . Js ' ow it re , he had done noihh-g , and done it wrong—( laughter ) . They woui ¦; oe loyal when they had something to be Joyai lo^—when they had something in return lor it ; could
rhey be loya ! to a rattU-box , to a -. eh . tn engine , a railroad , a .-stock Exchange , or a pa'ace ? there was more loyalty in sitting under the riven oak where tkeir " fathers B 3 d sat ; there wss mere loyalty in treading the grassy path still fresh with the foou-teps of their forefathers , and in milking the cow whicn their mothers had milked ; there was mere loyalty in living in the house where their fathers iiad lived and in beiDg buried in the same p ! ac-3 ; there was more loyalty in going to the parish schoo ] , to the parish church or cijapel—in viewing those beauties of nature , than there was in toiling m a rattk-box or gazing at a splendid review , —there was patriotism , a higher word than loyalty , in those feelings— : here was love of country . When
these times again returned there would be no fear of disaffection . A contented rural population , if threatened with foes or invasion , woald run with treater alacrity to the sound of their cottage being in daDger , than rouse to : the cry of the church is a tumbling . He was scarcely f-orry things were come to the present pass , if out of thVm the regeneration of bi 3 country should spring ; he could scarce complain of persecur lion , of being almost banished from his native land , if out of his struggling , good should ari ? e . He had struggled long and well to attain the mighty object of achieving freedom for both nations , and he thanked God that the day had arrived , when the English working classes could testify their love for
Ireland . —( great cheering . ) Their injuries and their resentments were buried in oblivion ; the party spirit encouraged by their oppr * s = ors had Eiven way before the generous manliness of their disposition ; all angry thoughts were bani .-hed now that his eountry was assailed by ihe common enemy . Mr . O'Connor then again reverted to tbe capabilities of the land , and ridiculed the idea of a superabundant population ; if there was rot something wrong and perverted in man's character , could he with fseliDgs of aught but indignation look on the trooper ' s faited hors * and view also a Ftarving population ! could be see the splendid equipages of the great with their fatted horse 3 tended like babes , while the-childr . n of working mci were deprived of
food ? Why should his countrymen be sent to foreign shores to-lav iheir bones in a foriegn grave , wkile the trooper ' s horse employed [ or slaughter and destruction , was consuming the corn of their fatherland ! Hewmld see tbe ihroats of every fatted horse , of every dog , cut ; and of every animal which lived upon man ' s food ; he wouid would see the stately forest rooted up and planted with green corn ere he would give way to their Mali ^ usian doctrines ; and tten , if God in hi 3 ir . erc ? did not send a snfficent supply of food , hewouli draw lo ' s with Lb fellow men who should go to foreign lands in fsrch of food , bn : until then , said Mr . O'Connor , let us hear no more of the rwailing advocate ? of Malthus , and their tricks of trade . Until man was placed upon the soil to support him ? elf by his own labour it was idle to talk that the land would not support the population . Mr . O'Connor then
alluded to the embarrassed state of the Gvveriinjent , and to the stand hi ? countrymen weic making tor Repeal ,-and concluded by stating that his doctor hsd advi .-ed him not to attend meetings in his present delicate health ; but ho felt more invigorated and refreshed now than when he emend the room , he believed they had done him more good -bun if he had taken all the drugs in a doctor's shop ; i : ttas the sitting too close to tbe tlc-k and attending les ^ at lxtfctings , which had lately injured his healih . Mr . O'Connor then exomplifisd the advantages of union , by referring to the profits of the meeting which w-t-rv devoted to the paying a portion of the debt off the hall , and sat down amid great applause . Mr . Parke ? moved , and Mr . Railton seconded a vote of thanks to Mr . O'Connor , wlich was carried by acclansatioD . > Ir . O'Co :. x : or briefly replied . Mr . Wheeler movel , and Mr . Wales seconded a vote of thanks to the chairman , and the meeting adjourofed .
A Meeting ef * he Co-srccil resident in London , was held on Sunday afternocD , a * = the Political and Scientific Institution , Torxagain lane , Mr . Knight in the chair . Mr . Wheeler wa » appointed Secretary p ^ o tern . Correspondence irMM&d frcm C ? gglfcsbaH , Oldhasi , Greenwich and other placea . Mr . Wheeler stat « d that in consequence of the majority of the ceuctry members having left London , and the paucity of communications from the eountrr , it was advisable that the idea of a Delegate meeting being held en tbe following Tuesday snoalrf be abandoned . Mr . Page moved and Mr . Mallard seconded that the sut ject should be adjourned one mon " . h , in order that the important districts in the country might bare an opportunity of expressing their opinions on the best time and place of holding a Delegate Meeting . Mr . Simpson supported the motion and urged the necessity of imttediate steps being taken to call a Confererce , that some t JBrient crgar- ' zitlon might be adopted ; Mr . Thorpe was of opinion tUat tbe me eting Ehonld be held on the Tuesday , it would serve as s
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preparatory conference . Mr . Mills moved aB an amendment that it be deferred a fortnight ; the amerdineat was not seconded and the original motion was carried without a dissentient The Council then adjourned for one mouth . Tub Metropolitan Delegate Meeting was held on Sunday , . Mr . Knight in the chair . 2 ? . 6 i . wus received from deckhouse ai . d 1 ? . 6 d . from B . osinsbury . Tbe meeting then adj-jurneo . to make room to * the General Council .
Political and Scientific Institution , Turn- j AGAIN-LaXE—Mr . Pdrkes preached here on Sunday i morning , and was much applauded . Ou Sunday even- ' ing , Mr . Partes addressed a large andience on the fate , of Frost and other political martyrs , and was listened i to with great attention . Mr . Brown occupied tbe chair , j Messrs . Mee , B .-o > vn , Sputr , Btnoow , Muntz , Cowau , and Kathbone , took part in a discussion which enEued . I A collection was Kiade at the close . ! SOUTH SHIZiDS . —Mr . Beesley lectured bore on } Tuesday evening , :. t Mr . DisWa , Scarbro' Spa , on tht ^
land question . Afur tbe lecture tbe following resolution , proposed by Wm . Crilflllan , seconded by Thomas ' Rjutiedge , and ably supported by Mr . Samuel Ky 4 d , bookseller , was unanimously agreed to : — " TJi'it it is ¦ tht opinion of this meeting that , the letters of Fear ^ us O'Connor , E ? q , on the land , and the lectures of Mr . ' Beesley , on the same snbject , are well worthy of the j serious attention of tee people of this country , as the ; best means of obtaining the People ' s Charter ; also tbe i surest method of eecuring their permanent happiness i when that great meagre becomes the law of the ' land . "
YEOVILt , ^ oxriiSETSHiRK . —A Mr . Brown , a ! Corn Law RepeaJcr , lectured here on the Corn Laws , a few days ago . Ho was opposed by Mr . i C . Maunder , who sought to obtain from mm a distinct avowal that tho repea ] of the Corn Laws , under existing circumstances , would benefit tke people . The lecturer , however , fought shy , and left the town without effecting the object for which he came . The " lads '" taught him a lesson , and convinced him that he coul 1 not have all his own way .
ABNOX . D , near isoTTiNGHAM . —In our last paper we gave an account of the proceedings consequent upon the election of a person to the office of poorrate collector . We have now to state that tho poll , which had been demanded by the Whigs , took place on Monday last , when the Chartists rallied in all their strength , and by a determined effort placed their man at the head of the poll , the numbers being — For Mr . Mellow , Chartist , 228 : for Mr . Thomas , the Churchman , 203 ; majority , 25 . The announcement was received with tremendous cheering . BURY . —On Sunday two sermons were preached by Mr . Hill , in the Garden-street Room , on behalf of the funns of tho Sunday school connected therewith . The congregations were numerous and attentive . The collections amounted to £ 7 4 s . 5 d .
ROCH 15 AI . E . —On Tuesday evening Mr . Hill lectured in the Thea ' . re to a lull house . After the lecture he called the attention of the audience to the condition of poor Cooper and Richards in Stafford hell hole . A committee was appointed io draw up a petition forthwith and to send it to Mx . Crawford for presentation . Both there and at Bolton a number of the new Chartist Hymn Books were bought by the people ; the trade profic upon which Mr . H . gives tothedefende fund , in the name of the respective towns .
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HOUSE OF COMMONS—Fridat , May 19 . Several notices of motion were given and questions asked . After which Lord Stanley brought forward his resolutions relating to tbe importation of Canadian wheat and wheat flour . The . Noble Lord moved that , in lieu of the duties now payable npon wheat and wheat flour imported into the United Kingdom from Canada , the duty for every quarter of wheat should be Is ., and for every barrel of wheat , meal , or flour , being 190 pounds , a duty equal in amount to the duty payable on 38 i gallons of wheat .
Mr . Laboucuere opposed tho motion , and moved as an amendment , an address to the Crown to withhold the Royal Assent from the B . ll passed by the Canadian Legislature . Mr . Thoknely seconded the amendment . A debate endued , in tho coarse of which several mrmbers gave utterance to their sentiufnts , and at midnight , the debate was adjourned until Monday .
MONDAY , May 22 . In answer to a question from Sir Andrew Leitii Hay , relative to the Secession from the Scotch Church , Sir Jamks Graham said that ninety-three endowed Ministers of the Established Church had seceded , a ureut number of lay members , and aa additional number of quoad sacra ministers had al .-o gene with them , and that her Majesty's Government would watch the proceedings of the General Assembly with resard to any measure that legally constituted body might adopt . The debate on the Canadian Corn question was iheu resumed and carried with some spirit . Ua a division , ministers bad a majorilyof ] 88 , the numbers bting , for Lord Stanley's proposition , 344 ; for the amendment , 156 .
TUESDAY , May 23 . A great number of petitions on various questions were presented . Mr . H AWts brought on his motion , for an address to the Q ietn on the subject of Danish Claims . The motion was withdrawn on a point of form .
KNUTSFORD GAOL . Mr . T . DUN'COMBE suid that in riling to call tbo attention of tbe House to the motion of which he hail g : 7 en notice , be might be allowed to explain how one so totally unconneeted with thJ Couniy cf Chester , came to be mixed up in a question apparently of u local character . When , on the 22 nd of February , ho rose to call the attention of the House to the conduct of the Lord Cbifef Baron ( Lord Abinger ) , at the special commission , held last October , -while he ( Mr . T . DuncombtO found fault with some of the sentenees passed by that Noble ai . n Learned Lord , he said that the severity of these sentences was much aggravated by the severity with wbkb the prisoners were treated in the
gaol of Knutaforii . On the following day the Honourable Member for Cheshire asked % hy be ( Mr . T . Duncorobei hud cot Eiven him notice of his intention to allude to the discipline enforced at Knutsford , and at the same time said that he ( Mr . T . Duncombe ) bad been altogether mUinfurtned on the subject . He immediately wrote to his infurrniyit to eay tha : his statements were likely to be disputed . The statements which he ( Mr . T . Duncoinbo had jnade relative to the treatment of the prisoners at Knutsford , amounted to this ; that the Chartist priaontrs complained that uu thtir arrival at the prison , they bnd been B'id . essed in very violent and insclent language by the gaoler ; secondly , that some of those priBontrs wvrt put uuuii the irtndnnll out of their
turn for the aniu . » = inent of some lames and gentlemen who visited the prison ; thirdly , that tbe overseer of those prisoners was himslf ; i felon , and that these prisoners wtre thuB compelled to associate with a felon ; and fourthly , that their food was insufficient both in quantity and quality . On the following Monday , the Honourable Mtmber for Cheshire gave a most unqualified contradiction to the statement ¦ w hich he \ Mr . T . Dunconibe ) had made on the authority of b ' . s informant , a gentleman resident in Stcckpoit . a : ; d tbe testimony of one of the prisoners was produced in fupport of the contradiction . Ho ( Mr . T . Doncoiube ) immediately observed that such contradictions coining Uom prisosvra , under the control of the magistrates ,
ought to be Tfeceived -with extreme caution , and therefore he begged leave to adhere to the statement he had originally muds- After that contradiction , be thought the House might fairly complain of the attempt that had bfetn made to mislead the House . If he had himsi-lf given way on that occasion , perhaps not one of the iv .-quitit-s connected with this prison would ever have come toli&bt . In consequence , however , of h : s perse verance in adhering to his statement , the Right Hon . Baronet opposite announced his intention to send down an inspector to investigate the circuniBtances connected with the case , if he ( Mr . T . Dancombe ) would furnish him vith the information which he was possessed of . Mr . Williams , tho inspector of prisons , accordingly proceeded to institote an investigation into the cate . and among other witnesses examined the Chaplain of
the prison ; and if Hon . Gentlemen would Uko the trouble to read the report of Captain Williams , they weald find that every statement made by him ( Mr . T . Danoombe ) was fully proved and substantiated by that report With respect to the charge against the governor of haviDg used to the prisonera violent and in&ultiug language , tbe Inspector said that , upon the concurrent testimony of the prisoners themselves , corroborated in a considerable degree by the evidence cf Mr . Tracey , an officer of the county gaol , it appeared that the -woids addressed to prisoners by the govtrnor , on their arrival , were to the following effect : — " >* ow , you special commission men , you were sent here to bt punished , and yon shall be punished . The discipline of this prison is so rigorously enforced , and tb . 8 lewa so 6 trict , that if I have to punish any
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of you , it will have such an effect upon your constitutions , that even under the most favourable circumstances , the strongest man among you won't have a constitution that 1 would gjve twopenc-j for when your sentence shall expire . " Mr . Tracay described this as " harsh language ; " bathe ( Vr . Duncombe ) believed the hou : e would agree with him that it was a most brutal speech . Tho report afterwards pToccsded : — "The chaplain also deposes , that on the 5 th of December the governor met bira in the prison yard , and , apparently under considerable irritation , addressed him in these words : ' Fauhurat , and boiuo of these Chartis . s , have been complaining about their beef ; ' and further B&id , D nan these ChartUfti * I'll give them their belly-full before I have done with th « m . " ' ¦ It appeared , whun
this speech was made , no third person was present . ( H = > ar , hear , from Mfe E ^ erton . ) From that cheer it was evident that tjb # Hon . Member intended to give credeuco to the testinfony of the govtrnor in . preference to a man of tespMta&iUty like tho R ^ v . Chaplain of tho gaol . If the governor denied the accuracy if the charge , why had he not cross-examined the Chaplain on that point ? In CODStquence of what had taken place , he ( Mr . T . Jhin .-oiiibu ) had other testimony respecting tfaa lanfjatjj © Mr . Burgess , the governor , was in the habit of using With respect to his prisoners . It ¦ was a letter from a tradesman of Kiutefurd , who was quite ready to come before a committee of tho Himae , if a committee should he granted . Tho letter ran thus : —
; . «• Knutsford , March 17 , 1843 . « S-r — Aiter p 3 T * sH % jronr remarks lately . made in the House t > f ComnwSrla relative to th * Hoots of GO rection at Knutfiford , I btg leave to state that Burgess , who is the head gaoler , has in the most unfculing manmr publicly boasted , in tho midst of a promiscuous company , in the bii of the Giotge Inn , "where bo occasionally toes to pass his evenings , ' of the short time in which by his prison discipline he can break down ( fis he expressed himself ) the constitutions of pritontjrs , ' -who unfortunately by their misdeeds placed th > mst'ivcs under his tender mercies ; such 1 b this man's boant , his favourite theme ; no person of any respectability will in the most distant manner associate ¦ with him . He had orders from the hostess of the Gborge Inu to take a room whenever he cam < 5 there , as peoplu who frequent the inn retire with horror from bis presence on account of tha merciless remarks he habitually indulges in , relative to the treatment of his
prisoners . For hispirthe ( Mr . Duncombe ) believed Mr . Brown , and he diii not believe Mr . Burgess ; and ho thought there w , vuid be great difHcu'ty in finding ; my ono out of that Hdhsj t j believe that Mr . Burgess did not uso tho words attributed to him by Mr Brown . Tbe report went on t ¦> say— " It is alleged that certain of the prisoners were , en Thursday , the 20 th of October , in the sessions week , placed upon tbe tread wheel , out of their regular tura , for the purpose of shewiog it working to strangers visit-in ? the house of correction . It appears to bo customary for the grnnd jury , at every sessions and adjourned sessions , to go through the houao of correction previous to their discharge , and that they are occasionally accompanied by females ; that at such
times , if the trea . iwbeel is not at work , prisoners are called out frrm their wards and placed upon it for a short time , to show the manner of its working . The complaint made by the prisoners of having on one occasion been placed on the wheel for such purpose in the sessions week , is , I consider , just , and that the practice is at all times fbjecUonal . " Here again xha inspector fully bore him ( Mr . Duncombe ) out in tbe chaw * *"" * i ? made . At the Gepw * «•— : r - ——¦« ™ " * on * ° t- . t . , e yjz , i iiiuiith , the . 'uagistrates there , assembled agreed to a report to the Secretary of State , in reply to the report < f tho inspector . In speaking of the practice of placiDg prisoners on the tread * wheel , for the purpose of showing its working to vsaiior 3 , tho r ° port of the magistrates saii , " It appears to the Court that tbe practice tins prevailed upon tho occasions
of the visits of thi grand jury , and , aa Captain Williams alleges , on some other occasions ; but , as the latter instances appear to hivt ) occurred always in the presence of a magistrate , tbis Court considers the governor to be exonerated . " Ho was ready to prove that tbe statement that tbiB was n ^ ver done except isi presence cf a magistrate was f . ilna Ho could prove that last summer a party , DQtwecn f > 'ur a > : 1 Hve in the afternoon , went to see the prison , and lint s . nnc prisoners wt : re called out , for ths amusement of the visitors , to show the working of th'j wheel , and tb . it neither the governor nor a magistrate waa present . The employment of a felon was admitted . The magistrates said , " It appears to tbo court that a prisoner convicted of felony has b- ; en appointed by tho governor to instruct
misdemeanants in the woaving , but he had no authority over them , and was nevrr with tMotii , unless he was called for by them to feich mitf-riii ' . a or to instruct the . n . This court have given directions that such practice shall not occur for the future . " The inftffijiency of food was also admitted , and thus was eacb . of his ( Mr . Thomas Duneoiiie ' s ) charges fully borne out by the report of the inspector . It appeared thi \ t tbe magistrates called the chaplain before them on tho 17 th of March , and su t j'Xttd liiiii to an examination , requesting him to state what ca <) passed between him and tbe inspector . The imijistnuds knew very W"ll what had occurred , fur many of Ibsm had been preset at the examination of the chaplain by Captain U ' aiiatns . It would have been better , certainly , under
tJ . ( -sj circumstances , if the chaplain had answered at ones , and bad said , " Yes , I cV , j say so und so ; I did givu this information ; I wns on my oatli . und bound to speck tbe truth . " He was asked why he had not informed the mngistrates at the time the words were U 9 ed by tbo governor ? He said ho had received orders , several years ago , to confine himself to his spiiitual duties . He ha »( , however , repeatedly entered on the journal cases of irregularity on tho pwt of the governor , ach as non-attendance at prayers , or divine service , which , according to tbe rules , he was hcuad to attend . The ruault of all this had been the dismissal if Mr . Brown , the chaplain . One charge brought against Mr . Brown was , that he was in the habit of corresponding with him ( Mr . Duncombe )—( a laugh . ) He bad not
been aware that there was any very senous wrong in a man ' s corresponding withliiHi , but , if there was it was en ( ffjiico Mr . Brown was wholly innocent of ; fur until he ( Mr . Duncombe ) heard of his diBiniss : il , ho had i . ever known of Mr . Brown ' s existence . TLe Ri » jht Hon . Baronet the Secretary of State for the Home Dj-pirtraent , in a letter addressed to the Chairman of ths G-neral Quarter Sessions for the county of Chester bad pronounced his opinion ou the coiiduct , of the govtrnor in these words : — " I have the honour to transmit to you a copy of the report of the inspector of prisoDS for the northern district , ou aa iiquiry into tbo treatment of prisoners in the Kuutsford H-.-ase of Correction . It is unnecessary for aw to enclose a c"py of the report which I received from the
visiting justices soon after the termination of the inquiry , as tney will doubtless already have transmitted to jcu a copy for the information of tbe magistrates ; but I enclose a copy of the inspector ' s remarks on the latter p-. irt tf that report , relating to certain particular * which wero m t connected with the inquiry , but which the inspector ( ieemedi l . ecessary to bring before the attention of tbo visiting justices . I have to request thstyou will submit these several statements to the magistrates of tbe county , at their first general meeting in quarter si-.-isioni , and request their attention most especially to those which relate to the conduct ot the governor , that they mny determine whether , after what has occurred , they can , with confidence and with safety , continue him in an office of such responsibility . I
forbear pointing out the various particulars which Bhow indiscretion in the governor find inattention to his duties ; but I cannot omit to mention one instance in which he appears to me to have been guilty of very great misconduct . I refer to a certain exse in which , : ifter tho express directions of the surgeon that corporal punishment should cease , he insisted that it should be continued , and it was continued accordingly . The magistrates are fully aware that if , on that occasioii , life bad been endangered and death had ensued , the governor must have been tried on a charge no less than of homicide . And I am persuaded the magistrates will be sensible of the great responsibility which : must be incurred by them , from subjecting prisoners any longer
to the custody of ono who could ho misconduct himself . " The magistrates , however , had addressed the secretary in these terms : — " This court remarks that it would be very convenient and conducive to the discipline of the prison , if the inspector would report to the visiting magistrates ai > y misconduct ia the officers or any other matter requiring their notice , as soon as it came to his knowledge , to whica tho magistrates will pay immediate attention . This court concludes by saying , that after a careful investigation of the charges referred to its consideration , it is of opinion that with the exception of the case of the boy Trainer ( which has a ' Teady been adjudicated upon ) , Bucb charges are in themselves not of hi ach importance , and their
recurrence provided against , and are not such as to deprive tae governor or the confidence which the magistrates have hitherto reposed in him , and which hia general good conduct and the discipline wbiob he has maintained in the prison hare appeared to deserre . " He ( Mr . T . Duncombe ) would maintain again that all hia charges had been fully borne out by the inspector ' s repoxt , and if the correctness of that report was doubted , tbat was au additional reason why this committee , for which be was about to move , ought to be granted . Among other charges against the governor \» aa , tbat ho had neglected to affix the rules in a proper part of the prison . This vraa treated as a rualttr of little impoitiucs , but be ( Mr . T . Duncombe ) thought there waa no part of the prison regulations of
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more Importance to the unfortunate prisoners , to whom it was of tho highest importance to know the ruka by which they were governed , and the nature of the rights of which they were not deprived . It was found that the gaoler hid employed the prisoners , eontrary to law , in mending hia gig ; the iron was said to be only worth sixpence , but ho ( Mr . T . Dancombe ) believed it to be reaUy -worth three shillings and sixpence . But suppose it be only worth sixpence , they saw men committed every day for stealing a few halfpence worth of apples or turnip-tops ' . Then as to the cirenmstaucta connected with the whipping of the boy Eiward Trainer , the case was said to have been adjudicated upon ; but tha fact was , that he had been merely reprimanded by the magistrates . Tbers was another case
in which a boy , named B ;» croft , h . td been flagged previously to his removal to Parkhurat prison ; and ho was flogged so careks&ly . that his eye was severely injured by the thong H ; understood that when a person was to be flogged in tin * gaol , tbo town crier of Knutsford was called in to inflict tho punishment at the rate of two shillings for each person . It was often the case that bo sur ^ -un , or assistant-surgeon , attended to witness the flogging administered , but merely an apprentice . Tbe report of the surgeon , Mr . D » ane , on the state of the gael , prison diet , & . O ., stated that sines his appointment to tho tfnee he had noticed the falling away or the men employed in labour ; that his conviction was , that after an experience of fifteen years , it waa impossible to keep men undergoing a long sentence
of imprisonment , in ordinary health , on a reduced allowance of food , and he , therefore , recommended that tbe allowance should be increased . Instead , how-VMrr 9 t £ t >* §* okr giviu . ' , tha prisoners an increase of food , as recommended T > y the sumeon , the punishment continually resorted to was a atopgage of their food . During tbe three months ending tbe 10 th of March , 1843 , the stoppages of diet had been on the average 302 daily [ an Hon . Member on the Ministeral benches exclaimed "No ; that was the number of prisoners . " ] Stoppage of diet was tho only description of punishment resorted to , ami it fell frequently on the same individual . The magistrates , however , seemed to think that
all these matters were of no cor . sequence ; they retained the gaoler bat dismissed the chaplain . If they thought the chaplain an improper person , why had they given him all those testimoriiils when applying for the chaplaincy of the Pentonville prison . In July 1842 , the magistrates spoke of the asbidious manner in which be had performed his duties as chaplain—of hia upright and moral character as a clergyman &nd a Christian , although in their report to the Secretary of State they said he w » s not entitled to their confidence , and had not been so for the last three years . The gaoler , the surgeon , tho schoolmaster , tli 6 task-master , and tbe matron all added their testimony to tho exemplary conduct of the chaplain , as would be seen by the following
documents : — " Kimtsford House of Correction Committee-room , July 21 ) . 1842 . " Wo , the undersigned magistrates , constituting the gaol committee of the Houso of Correction , KnutstorJ , in the county of Chester , and others , have great satisfiictian in bearing our testimony to the a al , assiduity , and faithfulness with which the Rev . W . R . Browne , M . A ., our chaplain , his performed his onerous duties during two years and a half , and also to hia upright and moral character , as a clergyman and a Christian . ( Signed ) " Esjerton Leigh , Hyde Jno . Clark . L . P . Townsbeud . " ^" o'Jl "" ' _ ,. UUJu , J . H . Harper , Jis . F . France , Robt . Hollirjgworth , John Howard , Chairman , Harry Mainwaring . "
" Tne Rev . W . Browne has held the situation of chaplain to the House of Correction here , for near throe yea . r 6 ; and having had , daring that period , almost daily communication with him , I bave great pleasure in bearing testimony to the zeal and assiduity with which he has discharged the duties of his office . He has shown himself sincerely anxious for the moral improvement of the prisoners , and has spared no pains to accomplish bis object . ( Signed ) " Richard Dean , " Surgeon to the House of Correction , " Kuutsford , Cheshire .
" July 28 , 1842 . " " House of Correction , Knutsford , July 28 , 1842 . " Tae Rev . W . Browne having officiated as chaplain here now two and a half years , and having been in daily communication , in my official capacity , with him for that period , I beg to add my testimony , along with several magistrates who have signed a testimonial in his fivour , to the efficient manner in which he has discharged his duties , and the active nal displayed by him to make himself useful in his tuinisteriu ! vocation . Hia private character will bear strict investigation . ( Signed ) " Oeo . Burgess , Governor . "
Thomas Hayes , school waiter and clerk , says , " The chaplain has been very aU-jntive to . the boys , both as to religion and other inatterB . Ha teaches them himself . He is tho first chaplain who fias done bo ; always examines the boys as to the chapter that has been read ; teaches them spelling ; lectures daily . Chaplain has always strove v <> ry much to do good by lecsures . Chaplain catechises the boys regularly on a Saturday , when they repeat tbe coiiect . That was never done before Mr . Browne ' s time . ' H <» has done his duty to the boys , you may depend upon it . *"
Greaves , ta&k-tnastcr , nays , " Chaplain never neglected his duty , he has seen him take prisoners to his room repeatedly . Hu never hear . 5 3 complaint of the chaplain at the hospital . Hospital m > 'n attend chapol lectures every day after prayers . He ( Greaves ) has been much edified by those lectures . He explains the Scripture in a clear and sensible way , so as the humblest capacity may understand . Never beard u prisoner complain of chaplain ' s neglect . Constantly more or less , chaplaia takes pr . souers to his \\ i \ v : \ te room . This has been bis usual babit . Has taken them particularly before the sacrament . '
Mrs . QaskeU , matron , says , " The chaplain has been very attentive . The women never were much instructed before his time . She always rtqmres the chaplain when prisonersare ill . He has ulwnyu attended immediately . Always has prayed with prisonera when requested by them . She ( tbe matron ) had accompanied him on these occasions . Chaplain has asked them whether they wished to be prayed to very fr « q"entlj ' . Juvenile females were never instructed bifoTe nearly ao well . She never heard of the chaplain neglecting bis duty . She ( matron ) never omits taking U ; o governor's order . The chaplain ' s conversation with prisonera when tick , religious , and good . She hasalwnyg a ' . tended daring these conversations . Chaplain has iilw-iys had conversation with the prisonera previous to thuir taking the
sacrament . Mr . Brown might , indeed , be well proud of forfeiting the confidence of such magistrates , / 1 'h . fry , however , had made up their minds six week * befo > v to dismiss the chaplain , and they did not coi . ¦ fit .-.-iccud to aiyue the matt r \ vi : h the- ;' who defended hw intere ^ s , Mr . G . Wilbrah&m , Mr . E . Stanley , -ma Mr . luveuport . Oiie of the magistrates askod , " Is thid fiaol to be governed by the Secretary of State or the magistrates of the county !"—( hear , bear ) . The Secretary of State wrote to tho visiting justices , stating his r « j < re , t , tnat the governor of the ga . oi should have been considered fit to be continued m his place , and expressing an opinion that the conduct h « had followed should have led to his immediate dismissal .
That letter , ho thought , reflected the grea'dst creaii on tho Iiiifht Honourable Baronet—( hear , hear . ) It was a bold and true statement of the case—a bold and true censure on those for whom he might be supposed to have had some predilection . Tho Right Honourable Baronet had proved that he wa 3 above political feeling on this important occasion , and had passed a censure on the magistrates , to which he wa (» satisfied the whole public would respond . I < uL now that tho Secretary of State ha-i done his duty , he maintained that it wna for Parliament to do theirs . It was impossible that ti ; - question could stop where it was . The re . sponsibiy : ^ , said the Right Honourable Baronet , lay on tho ma ^ isu- ^ . c ? . but he ( Mr . T . Duncombe ) maintained that it Ir . y ou Parliament .
Ho did nos think tin Right Hoii Carouet could carry the matter further than ho had done . He might certainly have cancelled tho commission , and remodelled it ; but that would lay a responsibility on the Right Hon . Baronet , which no man had a right to impose . It wa . s now for Parliament to interfere . He did not think thr-y hact yet probed to the bottom the iniquities and corruptions of this gaol ; he believed that still graator fxi .-ted than appeared on the face of the docurajufc , a . ud for this reason lie asked for a committee . H ? . wa 3 prepared to prove that within these few days , Burgcs . ? , tho gaoler , had collected some of the pri-on officers , and told them that the magistrates were determined to stand no mere of tbis nonsense , and that if any of the officers
were found dirulging anything thas passed in the prison , thej would be immediately Uisaiissed . This waa lately made by this man , who possessed the confidence ofthe saojority of the Cheshire magistrate ? . It ought not to be forgotten that from 2 , 000 to 8 , 000 individuals passed annually through this gaol , and therefore the administration was of some importance . If nothing further were to be divulged respecting it , the inspectors of prisons would nevor be able to arrive at the truth . If the magi-traes doubted the accuracy of the inspector ' s report ia'hiB instance , and thought he had misled the Secretary of State , that was an additional reason for giMnUug the committee . But . at all events , he thought thai . Parliament would see tie oecessity of strengthening the hands
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¦ / .- ; of the Secretary of State , nd granting fu- ' iet powers for the n-gulati ki ar-ysretn so d ? .-.- ' i of justice ai ; d humanity , as had prove i ' od withref- oo to this prison . The llonour ^ b' . e Member cono ... ' ; . " d by moving the following resolution : — " That ir ap . pearing to this House that the Secretary of Stau lor the Home Department , after inquiry made undi r hi 3 authority into certain circumstances i ^ aneoted with the disciplioe and management of the Knntsford House of Correctioc , in the county of Chester , has thought it rk'U to advise that the governor of the said House of
Cotrection should be removed ; and it also appcjnsig that the magistrates , in sessions assembled , n-ve , aftar an' alleged careful examination , deemed iho charges referred to them by the Secretary of i ? ta : e , with on < a exception , net of much importance , ' . < or such as to deprive the governor of the conSt .- . nee opposed in him , and whieh , as they allege , hi- ; zeuwal good conduct , and the discipline ho had maintained , appeared to deserve ; and , therefore , that nudi v > vernor , contrary to the recommendation of the Secretary of S'ate , has been continued ia his oCI ^ s ; and it being alleged by tho Rev . William Browne , in his petition , presented to this House , that h- ' .- . as been dismissed by the magistrates , after giviug .. ridence against the governor before tbe inspect . ; of p risons , upon the examination instituted Ly cuuh inspector , under the authority of the Sccruary of
State ; and this House , considering that the due tud proper management of the . « aid gaol must be ot . aportancfl to the public , and that the same must , j- ot materially depend upon the character and ociii- ^ t or the governor thereof , and upon due protef- . m being afforded to persons who may from tiuv o time bo called upon to give evidence before t ) n- inspector of prisons in respect thereof : it is rc-or . J , that a select committee be appointed , to inquire mi to the conduct and management of the said Iioi ^ > £ Correction , in respect to the matters referred to in ' " i © report of the magistrates , aud also into the nr . ; : netances connected with tho dismissal of ti > - li-v William Browne , the late chaplain of the .-aid House of Correction ; the said committee to ; i- > rt the evidence taken , and their opiaion thereon . i- < tao House . "
Mr . W . O . Stanley seconded the motion . _ Mr . Tatton Eceuton as ono of the Cheshire . \ i " 4-gistratcs implicated , denied that the governor o : the prison pos ^ ssed bis confldence , and expre " -- *! fiis regret at tho course which they had adoptee . . j , t even admitting that they had erred ia jua m ¦ -t , ? B ° , , by ftelioga of attachment to aa . oiJ < u , d faithful servant , still a body of thirty-four genW , ;> en residing ia and well acquainted with tho it . -7 , must bo better judges of all the circumstancob uizn the House . The chaplain had attributed his dismissal to political motives , which was a Jibe ! on the magistrates , for a large portion of those who concurred ii : it were liberal in their political priacip ' ^? , and he ha J been treated leniently , considering hia conduct . He opro « pd the motion .
Sir George Strickland said investigation ^ 3 absolutely necessary . He had defended the M gr :. afc unpaid in periods when they were not very popu : r ; but the allegations against the Governor of Kuu-. atord gaol were too serious to b ^ passed over , ¦> ing the manner in which the magistrates : * d screened him . Mr . Herbert Ccuteis wag also convinced ' at there shouln be inquiry . H 13 prejudices , as a L-. - i .-3-tra » . e , had be-on cn ! isiedagaiust the motion , but tha speech of Mr . T . Duiicombc had satisfied him th a , strong case had been nude out , to which no suflV .-ufc answer had been given .
bir J . Graham said that it wag not his intents to enter at length into the question which the I ' ' . > n . Member for Finsbury had that evening broivfit before the House . In the first place , it was hii 0 :. ty to acknowledge that the Hon . Member was ri-Jly justified in bringing that matter under the consideration of the House . He must also compliment the Hon . Member for the dispassionate manner in which h « had stated the case to the House . He ( Sir J braham ) would ai onco direct his attention to tha real point involved in the motion of the Hon . Member for a committee to inquire into tho conduct and management of the House of Correntfrru ^ ,. Ctf 6 member for Preston . He thought with that Hon . Baronet that this question ought to be
carefully sifted . If he ( Sir J . Graham ) considered that any additional inquiry would bring to light any now facts in connexion with this ease—if he could be induced to believe that tho investigation asked ' . " or by the Hon . Member would be productive of goodhe would not resist tho motion for a committee of inquiry . It had been affirmed that the Prison Inspectors had no power to investigate . A special inquiry had been made and was beforo tho House . He differed from tho view which the Honour ; . pIo Member for Chester had taken . Ho thouthfc that the matter which had roference to the cJ-apbia had been quite settled . With reference to ihe conduce of that gentleman he was not prepared to pronounce an opinion . He had no knowledge of the leading facts . Tbe Hon . Member for Finsbury complained that he ( Sir J . Graham ) had not 1 id
upon the table of the House all the reports mado t > y ihe Prison Inspectors . Under certain cirenmttan es reports of this kind ought to be considered as cf a a confidential character . Communication- 1 . -, rj which were made between tho Secretary of Suto and the bench of magistrates ehould be view ,: J ag confidential . Under the particular circumstances of the cxse he ( Sir James Graham ) should have thought thn he had acted widely if he had refused publ'c ' y to tlv * letters to which allusion had been 133 ! e . Whilst on thiq mibjeot , he was bound to s : ate that tho most difficult part in the admistration of his office was the management , of the gaois of this covntry . ( Cheers . ) But he wa . s bound also to say that from the magistracy in ireneral ho had receir <« l in
the discharge of his official duties , the mcr-t ( > lui-nt 1 assistance . ( Cheers . ) Ho , therefore , thought tJufc any chauge of tho law in that respect would not bo conducive to the p-ioli ? . good . If the vis-iting xr . % - gis ; ratcs wore to bo allowed to continue in the ex-.-rcise of control , the power of the officers of the guol mu . n be vested in them . That power of control would bs very inefficient if they had not il-e power of removal in certain cases . He felt himself j'iritiged in stating , that the majority of the magistrates of the county of Chester were in favour of the gaoler remaining in office . Tho majority was overwhelming—he did . not say unanimous—but it was certainly overwhelming . The majority was com-; posed of gentlemen entertaining the moat oppnr-te
political opinions . Ho adopted tho opinion of the Hon . Member who had recently addressed the Hou , and regretted that any feeling of jealousy phuuid hare arisen . iu c ' onsequenco of his ( Sir J . Gr . vacV ) interference . He was unwilling to speak vr ' . u harshness of tho decision to whioh the magi 3 tr ; : i' 3 had come respecting the dismissal of tho chaplxir-He could not regard it as a judicious exercise ofdscretionary power . Having made thi 9 admission he must 6 ay , that ho could not consent to the proposition of the Hon . Member for a committee . H 8 wa 3 strongly of opinion that the appointment of the different official personages connected wi : i tho gaols , as well as the power of dismissal , should be . vested in tne hands of the magistracy . Without
pledging the Government to any ulttrior measures he trusted the Houso would give tho Secretary of State concurrent power of dismissal with the magistrates . He again asserted , that judging from his past experience , ho was disposed to consider that it would be conducive to the public good that tha Secretary of State shou . d liave that power . He was gorry to detain the Ho iso , but he muat again repeat , that he did not think theiv wa 3 any good ground for inquiry . Ho , however , was prepared to admit that th * question could not etaud 1 : 1 its present posnum . H > > . aid think that legislative interference would bo better than tha inquiry which the Honourable Member for Finsbury solicited . The magistracy muifc have tha power of appointment and dismissalsubject
, to puol ; c opinion . He was au advocate tor retaining the power in the local authorities ; but poiiif control was necessary . The becretary of S ' . ate should , ha thought , have concurrent jurisdiction with tho magistrates . Incoacluiion ha would strongly impress mi t . V' lion . GoHtJeman the expedieucy of not fora . / g ; this question to a division . If he did persist it would be clearly his ( Sir J . Graham ' s ) daty to divid j againbt him ; but whether there was a divisiou or uos he would promise that the matter should be carefully cojisid r >( i by Her Majesty ' s Goveramenf , and ha cuuld further say , that as at present advised , ho wa 3 d ^ pos- 'fl iu ihe course of the present session to offer pome legislative remedy for the evils compiaiued of . ( Cneers . )
Sir T . Wif . de next addressed the Hou = e , but iu conptquenco ot a sevare cold tho Hon . siid Learned Gentleman's tone was so low that it wa 3 utterly impossible to distinguish his sentences in the gallory . As tar as we couid understand , he severely censured the conduct of the gaoler and reproved the magistrates for not taking earlier notice of tho abuses . If the House did no : interfere when such a case o £ neglect was presented tj their notice , it was clear they -would never interfere at all . He expressed his fear , that bad as the facts were , the House did not even yot ; know ail . As they Btood these facts
presented an overwhelming case , and unless the Government , would disiinedy promise to take tha case into their own hands , he thought the motion for the committee ought moat decidedly to be granted iherewas a precedent for such a proceeding in the easo of a warden of tho Fleet Prison , who wag charged some years back with gross misconduct , and whose ease- was strictl y investigated by a committea ot tho House . However , if the Government would take the subject up , then the Hon . Member for FinBbury might leave tho matter in their hands , and a division would be unnecessary .
, Mr . W . O . STANLEr disapproved of the conduct ot the Cheshire Justices , both in tho retention of the gaoler aud in the dismissal of the chaplain . Mr . Legh said a few words in justification of the magistrates for the dismiss ! ofthe chaplain . After a few words frofd Mr . Henley , who expressed an opinion that the whole subject of prison discipline must shortly be revised , Mr . Duncombe replied , consenting to withdraw his motion .
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V L T Z * Dd lause OL- 7 ffQ . 289 . SAURDAY , MAY 27 , ! ft 43 . ^^ lZT ^ f ^ Zl ^
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Citation
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Northern Star (1837-1852), May 27, 1843, page unpag, in the Nineteenth-Century Serials Edition (2008; 2018) ncse2.kdl.kcl.ac.uk/periodicals/ns/issues/vm2-ncseproduct652/page/1/
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